Again, I am not arguing that all the prophets spoke of Christ and pointed forward to him. Daniel was also given a prophecy that went after the period of Christ--the 2300 day prophecy--and whether you agree with the dispensationalist or SDA position doesn't matter at this point. You should agree, however, that this prophecy was written including Christ, but pointing forward to another prophecy of Christ (his second appearance).

Don't forget that prophecy is given as an assurance to God's people that they may see things being fulfilled and know that it is God who is working through it all. Surely, you can't concoct an argument saying that his second coming is not as important as the first. Different functions in the plan of salvation, I say, but all apart of the same plan.

How could the book of Revelation point to Christ's first coming Patti when it was written after it? And very specifically tells of the the second when Christ ransoms his bride and vanquishes sin forever.

Michael

LAST EDITED ON 08-29-01 AT 10:04 PM (GMT)

>Don't forget that prophecy is given as an assurance to God's people that they may see things being fulfilled and know that it is God who is working through it all.

Rom 5..Therefore, since we have been made right in God’s sight by faith, we have peace with God because of what Jesus Christ our Lord has done for us. Because of our faith, Christ has brought us into this place of highest privilege where we now stand, and we confidently and joyfully look forward to sharing God’s glory.

The Lord has done what he promised.

- Martin

So the Revelation is fulfilled by Christ. I have asked Patti what is the meaning of the symbols and again she fulfills my word and posts all kinds of scripture that do not in the least deal with my question.

But since the Revelation is all about Christ and Patti says that Christ fulfills those prophecies, what should we do?

Patti and the other antichristians tell us that the two love commandments fulfills the law. Love to God and love to man fulfills it. They then tell us that we don't have to keep the Ten Commandments or must not.

So here now we see that Christ fulfills these prophecies. Jesus dies on the cross AND THEN 60 OR SO YEARS LATER, CHRIST MEETS UP WITH JOHN THE REVELATOR AND GIVE HIM MYSTERIES THAT ARE ALREADY, ACCORDING TO THE ANTICHRISTIANS, FULFILLED IN CHRIST.

At the beginning of this great book is a blessing for those who read the prophecy, who understand it and who keeps those things that are therein. At the end of the book is a statement and definite affirmation of the destiny of all who either add to it or take away from it. Are some people trying to dilute its force today? The scripture there shows us that Christ compared to Patti is like night and day. In fact Patti does the will of Satan here.

I have thence shown how John the Revelator, though having Christ and the Holy Spirit, cries much because no one can open up the roll with the Seven Seals. Here we see again a dramatic difference between the children of Christ and those of Satan. In Patti's reply, she COMPLETELY ignored these points and didn't touch on them. This is typical, and this strikes at the base of their claim that we know they are workers for the Papacy only because they disagree with us and not because of the tremendous unscrupulousness they always show and the dramatic disrespect they always give to discussion and to those who discuss.

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But since the Revelation is all about Christ and Patti says that Christ fulfills those prophecies, what should we do?

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.

Ted:
So here now we see that Christ fulfills these prophecies. Jesus dies on the cross AND THEN 60 OR SO YEARS LATER, CHRIST MEETS UP WITH JOHN THE REVELATOR AND GIVE HIM MYSTERIES THAT ARE ALREADY FULFILLED IN CHRIST.

Absolutely! And you know what, Ted? People today are still wondering and marvelling over the magnificent saving act of Jesus Christ. Amazing, isn't it?

>Ted:
>So here now we see that
>Christ fulfills these prophecies. Jesus
>dies on the cross AND
>THEN 60 OR SO YEARS
>LATER, CHRIST MEETS UP WITH
>JOHN THE REVELATOR AND GIVE
>HIM MYSTERIES THAT ARE ALREADY
>FULFILLED IN CHRIST.
>
>
>Absolutely! And you know what,
>Ted? People today are
>still wondering and marvelling over
>the magnificent saving act of
>Jesus Christ. Amazing, isn't
>it?

Not nearly as amazing as the enemies of Christ posting here!

What then does the Revelation mean? When did you teach them to your bible students? No time to do that since you were teaching them about Ellen White?

Amazing! Isn't it?

Thankfully, the world can find God's true people who are teaching the world what these things mean that came AFTER the death of Christ that had supposed to fulfill it and made its meaning not so important.

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People today are
>still wondering and marvelling over
>the magnificent saving act of
>Jesus Christ. Amazing, isn't
>it?

Not nearly as amazing as the enemies of Christ posting here!

Do you really think that people posting on this forum are more "amazing" than the saving work of Jesus Christ?

Your hatred is consuming you, Ted. It is making you say things that I know you don't mean. It is time to lay it down.

May God grant you this day the peace that passes all understanding, the knowledge that God has reconciled you to Himself by the doing and dying of His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ.

Grace and peace,
Patti

>People today are
>>still wondering and marvelling over
>>the magnificent saving act of
>>Jesus Christ. Amazing, isn't
>>it?
>
>Not nearly as amazing as the
>enemies of Christ posting here!
>
>
>Do you really think that people
>posting on this forum are
>more "amazing" than the saving
>work of Jesus Christ?
>

I did not say that. A despot said that

>Your hatred is consuming you, Ted.
> It is making you
>say things that I know
>you don't mean. It
>is time to lay it
>down.
>

If I keep this up I will write a book about Patology and every forum I go on I will post about the Pat's. Then I will learn to teach others what it is to be obsessed about something and to hate something. I thought we just learned that we must love our enemies while they're alive, but we can hate them when they die as Pat used to excuse the accompanying hatred Gary Mayo has expressed against Ellen White on the Atoday forums.

Tis no wonder folks why one of the disputing individuals here isn't interested in the topic at hand and doesn't want to answer!

>May God grant you this day
>the peace that passes all
>understanding, the knowledge that God
>has reconciled you to Himself
>by the doing and dying
>of His Son, our Lord
>Jesus Christ.
>
>Grace and peace,
>Patti

Has Dr. Patti received that peace yet? That must mean that she doesn't post hatred of Ellen White anymore!

So, we remember that Christ gave us Matthew 24 and told the people to read and understand what it means. He then told us we are to pray that our flight from the abomination of desolation do not occur in the Winter, nor upon the Sabbath day.

That was partially fulfilled 40 years after Christ's death. The Christians had an interest in those words and suddenly left Jerusalem to dwell in the land of Pella according to Christ's words in Matthew 24 Patti is trying to deceive us into believing that Christ fulfilled.

I am just asking what that prophecy means, what the sealed prophecies to Daniel mean, when they were unsealed (she told us at the death of Christ), when at the death of Christ the Apostles gave mention that they were unsealed or when the Apostles even mentioned about them.

These are just some simple questions I have given to the one trying to change us from being "Ellenologists" to Patologists. I have been waiting for an answer but instead, someone is demonstrating a talent here that no Christian has.

Since I don't have a doctorate and therefore don't know what the topic of this thread is here, I am asking these questions. Who else, with all that the Pattis have written cannot tell what hatred is?

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that when we see the abomination of desolation, we are

Has Dr. Patti received that peace yet?

Yes, I have, Ted. And it can be yours also. Trust in Him, Ted. Rest assured of His love for you and the fullness of His grace for the sake of Jesus Christ. Jesus has won the victory; and peace with God is ours right now in Jesus Christ.

The Lord bless you and keep you
The Lord lift His countenance upon you
And give you peace.
The Lord make His face to shine upon you
And be gracious unto you.

Grace and peace,
Patti

I think the confusion is caused by the fact that Tmac isn't differentiating between first and second comings of Christ, Patti. We're saying that all prophecy is about Christ, but which coming? Some of Revelation has been fulfilled, yes, the parts that point to the church in the wilderness, etc. But surely you can't say that Christ has already coming a second time.

If so, you are digging a very big whole indeed.

Michael

I think the confusion is caused by the fact that Tmac isn't differentiating between first and second comings of Christ, Patti. We're saying that all prophecy is about Christ, but which coming? Some of Revelation has been fulfilled, yes, the parts that point to the church in the wilderness, etc. But surely you can't say that Christ has already coming a second time.

And I think the confusion is caused by your (and Ted's) reliance upon your own "logic" and your preconceived ideas (a la Ellen) instead of the Scriptures. I give you Scripture. You give me your own ideas. What could you possibly be able to convince me of considering your reluctance to quote Scripture?

I've already stated in other posts to you why I choose not to quote scripture as abundant as you do.

Logic schmogic. You point us to scriptures that defend your position at the expense of other texts. As for preconceived ideas, where do you figure that the second coming of christ is preconceived? If I have to quote scriptures to show you that there is a second coming and that IT is the goal, purpose, and consummation of the plan of salvation, then I am wasting my time.

Good day.
Michael

Oh yeah, you STILL didn't answer my question.

I've already stated in other posts to you why I choose not to quote scripture as abundant as you do.

Which is a royal cop-out. If you cannot quote the Scriptures, then we have no common basis for discussion.

Logic schmogic. You point us to scriptures that defend your position at the expense of other texts. As for preconceived ideas, where do you figure that the second coming of christ is preconceived?

I do not believe I ever said it was. What is preconceived on the part of the SDAs is every last detail of what will happen just before and for 1000 years after the Second Coming. I ask you yet again: How many people recognized Christ's first coming?

If I have to quote scriptures to show you

Never mind, for heaven's sake! If it is that much drudgery to use the Bible, then, by all means, just forget I ever mentioned it! (And from this point on, your words have no credibility at all with any biblically oriented believer because of lack of support.)

that there is a second coming and that IT is the goal, purpose, and consummation of the plan of salvation, then I am wasting my time.

Perhaps you are. Your time would be much better spent studying the Scriptures.

Patti asked: <How many people recognized Christ's first coming?>

Very few. Not many people studied the prophecies for themselves. They took other peoples' words as their own.

Notice that the ones who recognized him for who he was first were the ones who studied the prophecies, most notably Simeon and Anna.

You just proved my point, namely studying the prophecies is valuable for recognizing the signs of the second coming. Thank you.

In Christ,
Michael

Whoa Nelly!

The question at hand is <...all prophecy is about Christ, but which coming?>

I'm asking a simple question. If you admit that prophecy relates to both comings, then it is very tenable for Christians to study prophecy. This is my point. You are implying that there is no point to studying prophecy because 1) as humans, we could only add sinful speculation, 2) all prophecy has been fulfilled by Christ's first coming and therefore 3) Christ has already come a second time.

I especially concerned with points 2 and 3 as I think 99.9% of concerned Christians would disagree with you. If you are NOT saying these things, then simply admit so and we'll be done with this. I really don't like to debate non-issues.

Regarding quoting scriptures, I am learning a lot about the way you read and interpret posts by the way you answer them. Notice I never said I cannot quote, but that I choose not to much of the time (especially with you). Let me recap why: 1) you ignore what I quote or, 2) you find a seemingly contradictory text and use it as if you are the final arbiter of truth all the while not resolving the apparent contradiction, 3) as both of us are Christians, we should both be familiar with Christian concepts and ideas and thus the need to quote things (as if I need to see one more time from John 3:16 that all I have to do is believe) can yield to more pressing items such as A) my limited time at a paying computer B) condensing the amount of words that get posted. When many people choose to skip long posts, it becomes necessary to edit a post for length and clarity.

Good day,
Michael

>I think the confusion is caused
>by the fact that Tmac
>isn't differentiating between first and
>second comings of Christ, Patti.
>We're saying that all prophecy
>is about Christ, but which
>coming? Some of Revelation has
>been fulfilled, yes, the parts
>that point to the church
>in the wilderness, etc. But
>surely you can't say that
>Christ has already coming a
>second time.
>
>And I think the confusion is
>caused by your (and Ted's)
>reliance upon your own "logic"
>and your preconceived ideas (a
>la Ellen) instead of the
>Scriptures. I give you
>Scripture. You give me
>your own ideas. What
>could you possibly be able
>to convince me of considering
>your reluctance to quote Scripture?
>

We have quoted scripture. We quoted even Matthew 24 and asked you to tell us the meaning. We asked you to show us why the Christians of that day didn't listen to you, but read these prophecies and prepared and ultimately fled out of Jerusalem when the Romans surrounded the city as Christ said.

You told us, from all of your scripture quoting, that these prophecies mean Christ only and have refused to tell us what they mean and why they came and pointed AFTER Christ's death and ressurection. We have received a great deal of scriptures from you that don't even answer the point as can be shown by the question we now ask you:

WHAT DO THESE SCRIPTURES MEAN!

That's why we seek God's people for the answers instead of those who tell us to just relax in Christ, to understand that Christ is in control and we must not WORK for our salvation, but the strange one WORKS in making posts here and a book and never stops using manhours to accomplish some goal!

It went to the extent that the strange one even threatened me with a lawsuit and told me I should relax because Christ will conquer, yet the strange one, with Mommy, works to change us from being, according to her, Ellenologists to Patologists! She constantly libels us by telling us we just follow Ellen White, and now we should follow Pats.

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>That's why we seek God's people for the answers instead of those who tell us to just relax in Christ, to understand that Christ is in control and we must not WORK for our salvation,

hmmm "God's people" (Jesus Christ) seems to have told us the same thing Ted..

1)"those who tell us to just relax in Christ"

1 Peter 5..Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time, casting all your care upon Him, for He cares for you.

Matt 10.. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows. Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

2)"to understand that Christ is in control"

Matt 10.. Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.

3).."we must not WORK for our salvation"

Rom 4..Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness

- Martin

It is clear when the time of the end is. In human history there was only ONE TIME since the Revelations given to Daniel that those scriptures promoted great interest among human beings. That was the time when William Miller and others discovered the prophetic Revelations.

No those scriptures were not unsealed by the Apostles. Dr. Patti has been asked to show when those Apostles referred to those prophecies as being unsealed or when they explained those prophecies. Again she was not too eager to grant us discussion because she is well aware that she has nothing to go on.

The secrets given to Daniel were made prominent ONLY after her Rome was suppressed from casting the truth down to the ground and trodding the sanctuary underfoot.

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>In human history there was only ONE TIME since the Revelations given to Daniel that those scriptures promoted great interest among human beings.

That is wrong. The Holy Bible has excited and promoted great interest in the letters since they were first written. Worldwide. The churches that received them were overjoyed. Wherever there was a readable copy, or a person to tell it.

>That was the time when William Miller and others discovered the prophetic Revelations.

Thats nuts. But the mormons and the Jws are funny too.

- Martin