No one is denying that Christians aren't living in the kingdom of God with the power of the Holy Spirit.

You deny it with your very next sentence:

But the Spirit was called a DEPOSIT until that day when Christ shall come and reside with us personally.

Not merely a deposit; a guarantee. "The righteous will live by faith." If we cannot "see" the kingdom of heaven, then it is because we have not been given the eyesalve of the Holy Spirit so that we can perceive these things.

That is the whole point of the book of Revelation.

What is?

We are not to look to these lives here, but to look forward to that day.

To what day?

Revelation 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
2 who testifies to everything he saw--that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

Paul looked forward to his death:

2 Corinthians 5:1 Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.
2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling,
3 because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked.
4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.
5 Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord.
7 We live by faith, not by sight.
8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

That is why we are called Adventists.

Oh, is that the reason? :0

Patti has shown that she is not concerned about the events of that day, and that is the very thing (though there are others) that differeniate her from us.

And SDAs are very little concerned with the saving work of Jesus Christ.

We, like the apostles, look to that day.

Paul, as I said above, looked forward to being "absent from the body, and present with the Lord."

If you will re-read the NT, especially the book of Acts, you will find that the message that swept the world, (ie the Gospel) was a message of Jesus Christ and Him crucified. We, as New Testament Christians, are not as the Old Testament believers who saw the redemption of mankind only in symbols and shadows. We know in what manner God has saved mankind. We can point to the cross, an empty tomb, a sinless Life, an atoning death, as our fully accomplished salvation.

SDAs do not see this. Being Catholic in their view of salvation, they are still looking for salvation--inside of themselves. They do not live as victorious Christians here and now, saved fully by the work of Jesus Christ. They see themselves as having to "finish the work," and to "perfectly reproduce" the character of Jesus Christ inside of themselves before Christ can come and take them home.

There is no completed atonement for the SDAs, only a partial one. The jury is still out, so to speak. Therefore, for every statement of, "Whoever believes in Me has eternal life," SDAs must immediately pose a condition: "Yes, but..." (Don't feel alone, Michael. This is also the Catholic stance on salvation, and, unfortunately, a very large percentage of Christendom.)

And contrary to what she says, Daniel and Revelation were not about Christ's first coming, they are about the second.

According to whom, Michael? According to you? According to Ted? I give you a multitude of Scriptures, even words of Christ Himself, and you offer me your opinion? Let me see how that weighs in.. The words of Christ and the disciples vs. the words of Michael and Ted.

BTW, John states that the book of Revelation was written to the seven churches of Asia. Seven real churches that existed in John's day.

And so I agree with you TMAC. The books were written to point the CHURCHES to Christ and to ready their lives for him. Perhaps Patti should study the message of Laodicea and how it affects her understanding of faith/works.

Yes! Let's do just that!

First of all, let me ask you some questions:

1. Can you show me any scriptural support for the SDA view that the letters written to these seven churches represent seven epochs in human history?

2. I have always wondered from my childhood up, how SDAs can comfortably and complacently refer to themselves as "Laodicea." Laodicea is a lost church, one that makes God puke! Can you explain to me how SDAs are comfortable with referring to themselves as "Laodicea"? Here is the description of this self-righteous church:

Rev 3:14 "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation.
15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other!
16 So, because you are lukewarm--neither hot nor cold--I am about to spit you out of my mouth.
17 You say, `I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked.
18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.

SDAs speak, rather proudly, given appearances, of being the "Laodicean church." This is a church that is poor, blind, naked, and, worst of all, does not realize her own pitiful spiritual condition! Do you really expect us to believe that this is God's only true remnant, the only entity on earth "upon which God bestows His supreme regard"? This is a lost church! They do not know the Gospel; they have not clad themselves in the righteousness of Christ; and they feel no need of it at all!

Yes, you are right. SDAs look forward to their deliverance, just as the Jews looked forward (and still do). But Christianity looks backward and knows that its deliverance has been won. The Lamb was worthy! Christ was victorious! He ascended to God and was seated in the place of highest honor and authority in the Universe--the right hand of the Almighty. He reigns! And in His time, in His manner, in His way, He will gather His chosen fully into His kingdom. That is not ours to worry about; we are in His hands, and we know that they are powerful. He has promised to save us to the uttermost. Ours is not to second-guess God; ours is to trust in His promise.

Revelation 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
2 who testifies to everything he saw--that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.
4 John, To the seven churches in the province of Asia: Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne,
5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood,
6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father--to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

Amen and amen!

Grace and peace,
Patti

Rereading the message to the church of Laodicea (Rev. 3:14-22) I conclude that Laodicea, in addition to being a literal church, is also typical of the church living on the earth just prior to Christ's second coming. To say that Laodicea is a lost church, as some have, is to ignore that God is speaking conditionally (If this, then this...) as he has always. If (vs. 16) you continue to be lukewarm I am going to spew you out, BUT (vs. 18) there is still hope for those who buy pure gold, clean clothes, and ointment from the Father. Vs. 20, IF anyone hears Christ knocking at the door and lets him in, Christ will dine with him.

It is also wrong to say that only SDAs have this interpretation of Revelation's churches, as I have heard this in sermons from pulpits of all different sorts of denominations.

In Christ,
MIchael

>
>Yes, you are right. SDAs
>look forward to their deliverance,
>just as the Jews looked
>forward (and still do).
>But Christianity looks backward and
>knows that its deliverance has
>been won. The Lamb
>was worthy! Christ was
>victorious! He ascended to
>God and was seated in
>the place of highest honor
>and authority in the Universe--the
>right hand of the Almighty.
> He reigns! And
>in His time, in His
>manner, in His way, He
>will gather His chosen fully
>into His kingdom. That
>is not ours to worry
>about; we are in His
>hands, and we know that
>they are powerful. He
>has promised to save us
>to the uttermost. Ours
>is not to second-guess God;
>ours is to trust in
>His promise.
>
>Revelation 1:1 The revelation
>of Jesus Christ, which God
>gave him to show his
>servants what must soon take
>place. He made it known
>by sending his angel to
>his servant John,
>2 who testifies to
>everything he saw--that is, the
>word of God and the
>testimony of Jesus Christ.
>3 Blessed is the
>one who reads the words
>of this prophecy, and blessed
>are those who hear it
>and take to heart what
>is written in it, because
>the time is near.
>4 John, To the
>seven churches in the province
>of Asia: Grace and peace
>to you from him who
>is, and who was, and
>who is to come, and
>from the seven spirits before
>his throne,
>5 and from Jesus
>Christ, who is the faithful
>witness, the firstborn from the
>dead, and the ruler
>of the kings of the
>earth. To him who loves
>us and has freed
>us from our sins by
>his blood,
>6 and has
>made us to be a
>kingdom and priests to serve
>his God and Father--to him
>be glory and power for
>ever and ever! Amen.
>
>
>Amen and amen!
>
>Grace and peace,
>Patti

Amen and Amen! Glory to God!

Your posts are so uplifting Patti. Rather than the law, you choose to uplift Jesus Christ and His beauty. Thank you!

- Martin

>And SDAs are very little concerned
>with the saving work of
>Jesus Christ.
>

Another suable slander. Who do you know of who is concerned about the saving work of Christ and can lie as skillfully as these Vaticans here?

>We, like the apostles, look to
>that day.
>
>Paul, as I said above, looked
>forward to being "absent from
>the body, and present with
>the Lord."
>
>If you will re-read the NT,
>especially the book of Acts,
>you will find that the
>message that swept the world,
>(ie the Gospel) was a
>message of Jesus Christ and
>Him crucified.

But Christ Himself didn't know that the Gospel is "as good as it gets" because He taught the people Matthew 24. Christ appears to be just as ignorant and Ellenologist as Adventists!

>We, as
>New Testament Christians, are not
>as the Old Testament believers
>who saw the redemption of
>mankind only in symbols and
>shadows. We know in
>what manner God has saved
>mankind. We can point
>to the cross, an empty
>tomb, a sinless Life, an
>atoning death, as our fully
>accomplished salvation.
>
>SDAs do not see this.
>Being Catholic in their view
>of salvation, they are still
>looking for salvation--inside of themselves.

Slander, slander, sueable slander. No wonder Patti, being in the new kingdom, threatened me with a lawsuit like her Mommy and told me not to worry because the truth will conquer!

>They do not live
>as victorious Christians here and
>now, saved fully by the
>work of Jesus Christ.
>They see themselves as having
>to "finish the work," and
>to "perfectly reproduce" the character
>of Jesus Christ inside of
>themselves before Christ can come
>and take them home.
>

But the Pattis have written a book and they can be found on all the forums telling about the "finished work" that doesn't require posting and trailing the posts of people who have the truth. They can't just relax and let Christ show the world the truth about all the "legalistic Ellenologists," they post with some urgency about them telling the world how the Vatican cannot bear to mind about a trivial denomination called the Adventist Church!

>There is no completed atonement for
>the SDAs, only a partial
>one. The jury is
>still out, so to speak.

And Christ already came for everybody else and doesn't even listen to their prayers in heaven. They are telling us that He is not a High Priest!

> Therefore, for every statement
>of, "Whoever believes in Me
>has eternal life," SDAs must
>immediately pose a condition:
>"Yes, but..."

Christ did the same thing in Matthew 19. As a matter of fact, Patti is so much in Christ, we have not yet received an answer for Christ's Greatest Hits in Matthew 19 where he tells us that to be saved we must "do no murder", etc.

(Don't feel
>alone, Michael. This is
>also the Catholic stance on
>salvation, and, unfortunately, a very
>large percentage of Christendom.)
>

And Christ also as we have shown.

>And contrary to what she says,
>Daniel and Revelation were not
>about Christ's first coming, they
>are about the second.
>
>According to whom, Michael? According
>to you? According to
>Ted? I give you
>a multitude of Scriptures, even
>words of Christ Himself, and
>you offer me your opinion?
> Let me see how
>that weighs in.. The words
>of Christ and the disciples
>vs. the words of Michael
>and Ted.
>

The book of Revelation was given more than 60 years after the death of Christ in order to show things that will come to pass in the future according to Rev. 1.

Want to know what would happen if all power were taken away from the Nazis and they were allowed to post on the internets?

>BTW, John states that the book
>of Revelation was written to
>the seven churches of Asia.
> Seven real churches that
>existed in John's day.
>

And that's why Revelation tells us that the beast will compel all small and great, rich and poor, free and bond to receive the Mark of the Beast, and that's the reason why Christ will come in glory to destroy this beast and free these seven churches!

Want more reasons why Dr. Patti dare not tell us what the prophecies mean?

>And so I agree with you
>TMAC. The books were written
>to point the CHURCHES to
>Christ and to ready their
>lives for him. Perhaps Patti
>should study the message of
>Laodicea and how it affects
>her understanding of faith/works.
>

How did Matthew 24 do that again? When the Christians fled from Jerusalem away from the invading Roman armies, did they find Christ in the land of Pella?

THE LAST WORD ON ADVENTIST TRUTH!

But the Pattis have written a book

I have not "written a book," Ted.
Well, I have written a book, four actually, going on eight. But not on anything that has to do with religion.

But God bless you anyway.

May He deal gently with you.

Grace and peace,
Patti

I intend on answering your questions, but I feel many are loaded and contain explanations whose meanings can be twisted. So let's start simple, ok?

1. Does the Bible point all Christians to Christ's literal, physical second coming to this Earth to rid sin from the universe forever? If yes, why is this important?

2. Why is the Holy Spirit called a guarantee? What does the word guarantee mean and what does it therefore imply about God's church living right now on the earth?

Let's start here.

In Christ,
Michael

I am really tired of speculations and opinions on what the Scriptures say. You quoted a verse from this chapter. Perhaps we should really see what the chapter says instead of plucking a verse out of it and trying to defend our beliefs based on a single verse:

2 Corinthians 5:1 Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.
2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling,
3 because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked.
4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.
5 Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord.
7 We live by faith, not by sight.

Do you know what "faith" is, Michael? Faith is the conviction (absolute belief) of things that we cannot see nor touch nor experience. If we can see, feel, touch or "experience" something, then it is not "of faith."

While we are still in our sinful bodies, we know that we are physically away from the presence of God; but we know at the same time, because of the gift of the Spirit, that when we leave this sinful body behind, we will be present with the Lord. But, unfortunately, SDAs because of the unorthodox belief about "soul sleep," cannot have the same confidence that Paul and Luther had, that to be away from the body was to be at home with the Lord. Since they cannot have this kind of faith, then they must focus solely on the Second Coming. They await the fulfillment of all things; orthodox Christianity lives in joyful celebration of the Fulfillment of all things, the incarnation, life and death of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
9 So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
11 Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience.
12 We are not trying to commend ourselves to you again, but are giving you an opportunity to take pride in us, so that you can answer those who take pride in what is seen rather than in what is in the heart.
13 If we are out of our mind, it is for the sake of God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you.
14 For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.
15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.
16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer.
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

Is this a literal, physical thing that has happened to us already! Of course not! It is by faith that we are a new creation; that the old has gone and the new has come. And so we live in the kingdom of God right now, BY FAITH. We are not waiting for the verdict to fall. If we are in Christ, we are new creations! Just because the world cannot see it, does not mean it is not so. Because we have eyes of faith through the Holy Spirit.

18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:
19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

We ARE reconciled to God in Christ! And Who was it That did the reconciling? God Himself! All things have become new. We are accepted by God as heirs of His kingdom in Jesus Christ.

20 We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.
21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Jesus took on our sin, became a sin offering for us, so that God could negate our sins. Not only that, He offers us His Perfect Life as a substitute for our own. In HIM, we become the very Righteousness of God Himself! Marvelous grace! Infinite love! Who can comprehend it!