Herein lies the difference between many Christians and Adventist Christians. Adventists are Christians who look forward to the 2nd coming of Christ at which point Christ will finish the ministry in the heavenly temple, completing the entire plan of salvation, doing away with sin forever. ]

We view ourselves as transients on this earth since sin entered, and we long for the day when Christ will return and take us home with him. For we long to be with him.

The kingdom of God has come, yes, we will not argue. But the literal kingdom has yet to come, and that is the whole point of Revelation. As long as sin exists in the universe the plan is not finished. It finishes when the high priest (Christ) in heaven, transfers the sins of all history onto the scapegoat and banishes it forever to the desert where it will never return again.

Michael

Adventists are Christians who look forward to the 2nd coming of Christ at which point Christ will finish the ministry in the heavenly temple, completing the entire plan of salvation, doing away with sin forever.

Exactly. I couldn't have said it better. SDAs do not see in the Christ event a completed and perfect work of salvation. Other Christians (fully supported by Scripture) believe that Christ's was victorious at the cross; that we live by faith in His kingdom right now. That there is nothing that needs to be or can be added to His perfect salvation.

Thus, SDAs look to themselves for the "finishing the work," instead of to Christ Who has conquered sin and death.

The plan of salvation does not end at the cross. To say so is to reveal your lack of knowledge regarding the OT sanctuary, which clearly tells us the ENTIRE plan of salvation.

Notice it's called plan of salvation, not just salvation. Plans involve more than one action.

Michael

P.S.- What no one can seem to get across to you Patti, is that there is a difference between the kingdom we are in now and the literal one to come where we speak to Jesus face to face when sin and sinners are no more. Unless, of course, your faking it to lead your brothers and sisters in Christ to anger. Is that plain enough for you? Remember, the Spirit is a guarantee that Christ will RETURN AGAIN. Which means, he has not returned yet.

The plan of salvation does not end at the cross.

It was completed at the cross.

To say so is to reveal your lack of knowledge regarding the OT sanctuary, which clearly tells us the ENTIRE plan of salvation.

Jesus IS the "entire plan of salvation."
The Sanctuary--every part of it--referred to and prophesied of His saving work for mankind! Can't you see it?

The Laver -- He is the Water of Life.
The Shewbread -- He is the Bread of Life.
The Candlesticks -- He is the Light of the world.
The lamb -- Jesus is the spotless Lamb of God
The scapegoat -- Jesus takes away the sin of the world
The priest -- Jesus offered Himself
The curtain -- The body of Christ that was torn
The high priest -- Jesus entered heaven itself with His own blood, having made purification for sin
The Mercy Seat -- Christ IS our mercy seat!

The problem you are having, which is common among SDAs, is that you are trying to define the Reality, Christ, by the shadows, the sanctuary and its rituals. Which is not only unnecessary, but counterproductive. Instead, one must define the sanctuary, and all of the Old Testament, by the Christ event, the very climax of all human history.

P.S.- What no one can seem to get across to you Patti, is that there is a difference between the kingdom we are in now and the literal one to come where we speak to Jesus face to face when sin and sinners are no more.

And I hope no one does! Why would I want to move back into a shadowy, uncertain existence?

Those who cannot "see" that the Kingdom of God is now are those who do not see by faith. By faith, we are sons and daughters of God, living right now under our Lord of lords and King of kings, Jesus Christ.

Unless, of course, your faking it to lead your brothers and sisters in Christ to anger.

Michael, what a horribly nasty and judgmental thing to say. May God deal gently with you.

Is that plain enough for you? Remember, the Spirit is a guarantee that Christ will RETURN AGAIN.

Your interpretation. Which may be correct. But it is not the only possibility:

Ephesians 1:12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.

Which brings up another issue, one that SDAs differ from all other Christian groups (except JWs, but one would be hard-pressed to call them "Christian," since they openly deny the deity of Christ). And that is "soul sleep." Christians can look forward to death, as "to be absent from the body and present with the Lord." SDAs cannot. They must look forward only to the Second Coming.

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LAST EDITED ON 09-01-01 AT 07:59 AM (GMT)

Patti says: <The problem you are having, which is common among SDAs, is that you are trying to define the Reality, Christ, by the shadows, the sanctuary and its rituals. Which is not only unnecessary, but counterproductive.>

According to what proof? Because the conclusion one arrives to differs from your own? Please reason logically and intelligently with me.

Patti continues: <Instead, one must define the sanctuary, and all of the Old Testament, by the Christ event, the very climax of all human history.>

Again, scriptural proof? It makes more sense that the two offer valuable insights into the other. It is magnificent that the sanctuary can point the world to Christ and everything he would come to do millennia before he ever actually came in the flesh. It is also magnificent that Christ actually CAME into human flesh and died for our sorry butts, thus fulfilling all the details given in the sanctuary.

Patti says (referring to my statement that there is a difference between the two comings of Christ): <Why would I want to move back into a shadowy, uncertain existence?>

I don't quite understand where the shadow and uncertainty is. In truth, living on this earth separated physically from Christ is far more shadowy and uncertain than it is to be physically and literally in the presence of God, free forever from sin!! No wonder the prophets and apostles looked forward to the second coming so much! Alas, until then, we live by faith that he will do these things as promised, with his Spirit as a guarantee...

Patti ends with: <Christians can look forward to , as "to be absent from the body and present with the Lord." SDAs cannot. They must look forward only to the Second Coming.>

What I can't understand is why you don't understand the SDA position already and how it is not contradictory to scripture. For a person who dies, their thoughts immediately cease. The NEXT thought they possess is of their Saviour descending to take them home with him. At that instant, they are with the Lord. In fact, if I can be so bold, I would continue to say the SDA position has a considerable advantage over those contrary to it, namely that WHEN we see Christ we HAVE our resurrected/perfected bodies. Your interpretation leaves us floating around as spirits until that day Christ decides it's time to return to earth and give those glorified bodies we've been so anxious to receive.

Think about it.

In Christ,
Michael

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Romans 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Hebrews 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
+++
1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

>Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye
>men of Galilee, why stand
>ye gazing up into heaven?
>this same Jesus, which is
>taken up from you into
>heaven, shall so come in
>like manner as ye have
>seen him go into heaven.
>
>
>1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we
>say unto you by the
>word of the Lord, that
>we which are alive and
>remain unto the coming of
>the Lord shall not prevent
>them which are asleep.
>
>Romans 6:5 For if we have
>been planted together in the
>likeness of his death, we
>shall be also in the
>likeness of his resurrection:
>
>Hebrews 11:35 Women received their dead
>raised to life again: and
>others were tortured, not accepting
>deliverance; that they might obtain
>a better resurrection:
>
>1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the
>God and Father of our
>Lord Jesus Christ, which according
>to his abundant mercy hath
>begotten us again unto a
>lively hope by the resurrection
>of Jesus Christ from the
>dead,
>
>1 Peter 3:21 The like figure
>whereunto even baptism doth also
>now save us (not the
>putting away of the filth
>of the flesh, but the
>answer of a good conscience
>toward God,) by the resurrection
>of Jesus Christ:
>
>Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is
>he that hath part in
>the first resurrection: on such
>the second death hath no
>power, but they shall be
>priests of God and of
>Christ, and shall reign with
>him a thousand years.
>+++
>1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer
>not a woman to teach,
>nor to usurp authority over
>the man, but to be
>in silence.

Are you trying to make a point? If so, what is it?

Thank you

- Martin

>Are you trying to make a point? If so, what is it?

Didn't you know that the Bible is very clear? Read the texts and see.

Dr. Patti is wicked enough to always tell us that Christ fulfills all His instructions so we should not concentrate on His instructions. Would you believe there were people just as satanic who went to the antediluvians and told them that Christ fulfilled all instructions about the boat, and they therefore need not get on?

But still if that was true she would not be so amazingly unscrpulous. After storming my forum and threatening me with lawsuits, we had an argument and Dr. Patti told me that the truth will always conquer as she was telling me that I should relax and take her Vatican attacks. I remarked that she surely missed many years informing her mother about this since her mother most exclusively lives to attack Ellen White and call others "paranoid" who talk about the living soldiers of the Papacy and insult her therewith. But the point is if Christ fulfilled all of these things, Dr. Patti and every other papist would have relaxed long ago and there would have been no fight here.

Okay then, so the Time of the End is just after the cross. Therefore these mysteries were unsealed after the cross. When Christ died, there was even mention of these things unsealed by the Apostles. These Apostles even referred back to Daniel 12:9 after the death of Christ in order to acknowledge and show us that now these symbolic mysteries are unsealed. And why not, included in these symbolic mysteries is the prophecy of the 2300 days which ended way AFTER the death of Christ! When did the Apostles mention the unsealing? Just committed to be a liar, huh? What kind of religion is this these strange people have where they actually believe a religion of lies and constant warfare against protestantism will merit heaven for them. If they are told they are going to heaven for this constant fibbing, what makes that statement truth?

If these issues were so important to make the Most High pay Daniel a visit, shouldn’t there be a mention of the fruits of these efforts by the Apostles since Dr. Patti has decreed the world must believe that they were unsealed at the cross? If they were unsealed then, how come I have asked her over and over again what is the symbolic meaning and she refuses to answer, but just replies that they all mean Christ?

The timetable of this prophecy even contains as a small part of it the anointing of Christ at His baptism and then goes some 1800 years afterward. Then the Revelator asked the angel how long will the sanctuary be trodden under foot of the Gentiles (during the Dark Ages) where the judgment will be delayed and the TRUTH will be cast down to the gound? When did that happen before the cross? And if it already happened before the cross, how is the prophecy a prediction of things going into the future? Christ gave a mention of these things in Matthew 24, showing that they are yet future well after His death!

Therefore after Christ died, a sudden rush of interest took place over the prophecies of Daniel and the Revelation? That’s kind of hard to believe since the Revelation wasn’t even written till some 60 years after the death of Christ. But we do find that after the Papacy’s dark night of despot rule over the world, a great interest in bible study was kindled. Then suddenly men started to stand up because they discovered certain hidden mysteries in their study of Daniel. William Miller, Edward Irving, Joseph Wolf, and even Manuel De La Cunza all prophecied that something cataclysmic was going to take place in about the year 1843, and suddenly these scriptures with these hidden mysteries generated greater concern and interest than in the entire history of their existence. That’s when ominous folk like Patti came by to tell the world that these things are incomprehensible mysteries, and now the key thing to say is that Christ fulfilled all of that, so why not tone down our “love” for Christ to be like Patti’s so we can ignore His words!

All history can see and know when the hidden mysteries of these prophecies became known. They became known at the time that even attention to these things were at their absolute highest. Attention to these things came AFTER the Little Horn during the Dark Ages cast the truth down to the ground (as he is struggling to do here through his servants) and attention to these things came WITH INTEREST IN THE JUDGMENT.

Dr. Patti knows these things, but there has to be a way for her to elevate her words over evidence and actual facts. Is it true that the bride of Christ can lie better than Satan?

THE LAST WORD ON ADVENTIST TRUTH!

Hi Patti & Tmac,

I want to keep this one short, ok?

Patti, I don't think there's any disagreement with what you've said. I affirm it. The confusion comes however over a use of words END OF TIME. If you choose to call the period from Chirst until now the 'end of time' then so be it. But then what do you call the period of events directly preceding Christ's second coming? The end of the end of time? ;) My point is that Adventists have reserved the phrase for the events of revelation directly preceding Christ's coming. Some call it the tribulation, time of trouble, etc.

Tmac, I'm getting a bad vibe from some of your postings to Patti. I don't know what all this stuff about the Vatican and other boards is about, but unless there is something specific that needs to come out, I would ask to please keep your concerns between yourself and Patti. She deserves respect as do you and I.

In Christ,
Michael

But then what do you call the period of events directly preceding Christ's second coming? The end of the end of time? ;)

"Time" is relevent only to us sinful humans. We do not know "God's time." (although some of us around here are fairly well convinced that it is Central Standard Time. )

There are just too many verses to be denied. We are living in the kingdom of God right now. If we cannot "see" it, then we are not living by faith. "Time" only matters until we die. For the living, Jesus may come at any moment. Or, He may take the whole world by surprise, as He did the first time, and do something that no one has expected or anticipated. I lean toward the latter. I think that most who call themselves by His name will be surprised, shocked, even terrified by the way that things will all pan out at the culmination of earthly time.

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Something specific is always coming out Michael. I can tell when I and the readers are being disrespected on a forum.

Even my questions now are not being answered. If the mysteries given to Daniel were UNSEALED at the cross, when was it done? When did the Apostles go line by line to unlock what the symbols meant. Where was heard any great interest in what had been revealed about the 2300 days after Christ died.

As I check through the history of the earth, the only time I see solid interest in these things is when William Miller and other great preachers stood up to proclaim that they had found something in the prophecies.

Not only is the claim that Jesus fulfilled everything base and false, it is just as much disrespect as was given to the Saints during the inquisitions. The heretics are always a bunch of stupid fools, so why not treat them like that.

If they were unsealed all the way back at the cross, why can't Dr. Patti tell us then what it means? She tells us that the 2300 days means Christ. The little horn means Christ. She is telling us that everything means Christ, so Christ gave us Christ but sealed Christ up till the last days where is only recorded in all of history when these scriptures were given interest and people actually stood up to tell the world what it means.

Any of the prophecies of God has a curse over them for any enemy of God who tries to add to them or to take away from them. Can one so connected with Christ tell us what is the meaning of those prophecies? If Christ consulted Patti first before revealing these things to Daniel, would Patti have told Christ to give them to him?

If Christians can do what Patti does, by all means please let me know. The scriptures tell us however that ANYONE who adds to them or takes away from them is damned.

John the Revelator was given a vision in heaven, and he saw a document that was sealed with seven seals. Soon he found out that no one in heaven and earth was worthy to unseal the documents. Because of that he WEPT GREATLY. If the man had Christ as Dr. Patti has, just what is his problem why he cannot understand that the meaning of the document was Christ? Why did he have such an interest in the document since Dr. Patti not only doesn't have any such an interest, but she is here to make sure no one else has an interest?

THE LAST WORD ON ADVENTIST TRUTH!

I would agree that Patti is not facing the questions we have put to her (though I don't see that as a reason to insult anyone)...

No one is denying that Christians aren't living in the kingdom of God with the power of the Holy Spirit. But the Spirit was called a DEPOSIT until that day when Christ shall come and reside with us personally. That is the whole point of the book of Revelation. We are not to look to these lives here, but to look forward to that day. That is why we are called Adventists. Patti has shown that she is not concerned about the events of that day, and that is the very thing (though there are others) that differeniate her from us. We, like the apostles, look to that day.

And contrary to what she says, Daniel and Revelation were not about Christ's first coming, they are about the second. And so I agree with you TMAC. The books were written to point the CHURCHES to Christ and to ready their lives for him. Perhaps Patti should study the message of Laodicea and how it affects her understanding of faith/works.

In Christ,
Michael