Free Web Site - Free Web Space and Site Hosting - Web Hosting - Internet Store and Ecommerce Solution Provider - High Speed Internet
Search the Web

The following dialogue was captured from the Carm forums: http://www.carm.org. It is the eighth part of a series of eight in the same topic.

You cannot now find this dialogue on the Carm forums because the forum administrator or owner: "Dr. Patti" claims that the forum was upgraded sometime ago and fell into problems in the process. It therefore lost its former messages.

Be prepared to examine very carefully the tactics used in this dialogue. It is hoped that you would be able to understand what is being said and done here. It is worth your while studying these things, for soon you will see your national leaders exercise these very same tactics as they push a mandate upon you that is contrary to our Constitutional system in order to secure CHANGE.

This is part Eight:

 

Janice (1198 posts) Click to EMail Janice Click to send private message to Janice Click to view user profile Click to send message via ICQ Click to check IP address of the poster
08-25-01, 11:26 AM (GMT)
9. "RE: Ellen White's greatest hits"
>LAST EDITED ON 08-25-01
>AT 06:45 AM (GMT)

>
>When one is "in Christ" (one
>of Paul's favorite motifs; used
>74 times in 73 verses)
>one is counted as perfect
>for He is perfect.
>+++
>Thinking is the hardest work there
>is, which is the probable
>reason why so few engage
>in it. - Henry Ford,
>Sr.

Then how do you account for St. Paul saying that he had to strive to finish the race? That he had to work out his salvation in fear and trembling? If he were now perfect, why would he be trembling? Wouldn't he be able to be assured of finishing the race? I really don't understand.

I'm not real familiar with the Bible so as I can find what I am looking for. Sorry about that.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
DrPatti (1342 posts) Click to EMail DrPatti Click to send private message to DrPatti Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
08-25-01, 01:10 PM (GMT)
19. "RE: Ellen White's greatest hits"
Janice:
Then how do you account for St. Paul saying that he had to strive to finish the race? That he had to work out his salvation in fear and trembling? If he were now perfect, why would he be trembling? Wouldn't he be able to be assured of finishing the race? I really don't understand.


Patti:
Those are isolated prooftexts, Janice. You claim you are not familiar with the Scriptures. I say (please forgive my harshness) that you need to stop making excuses and get to know them. Otherwise you are dependent upon hearsay of what others tell you they think they say.

1. "Finishing the race"--

2 Timothy 4:6 For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time has come for my departure.
7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
8 Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day--and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.

Where in this passage does it say anything about Paul attaining sinless perfection? On the contrary, he speaks of "keeping the faith." Faith in what? In the merits of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. In His great salvation.

2. That he had to work out his salvation in fear and trembling? If he were now perfect, why would he be trembling?

Good question. But, again, the passage is taken out of context. Here is the context:

Philippians 2:1 If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion,
2 then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose

Paul is not speaking of salvation in this passage. Clearly he is speakin to those who are already "united with Christ."

3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves.
4 Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death-- even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,

Their salvation was a given. Paul is encouraging them to continue to keep the faith, to obey the Gospel, and to "work out" the salvation that they have experienced in loving deeds to each other.

13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.
14 Do everything without complaining or arguing,
15 so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked and depraved generation, in which you shine like stars in the universe
16 as you hold out the word of life--in order that I may boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor for nothing.
17 But even if I am being poured out like a drink offering on the sacrifice and service coming from your faith, I am glad and rejoice with all of you.

Here is Paul's account of his post-conversion self. Remember this is God's chosen vessel of the Gospel to the Gentiles speaking:

Romans 7:9 Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.
10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.
11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.
12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.
13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.
15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.
16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good.
17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.
18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.
19 For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing.
20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me.
22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law;
23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members.
24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?
25 Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Geoff (39 posts) Click to EMail Geoff Click to send private message to Geoff Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
08-25-01, 10:08 AM (GMT)
5. "RE: Ellen White's greatest hits"
Matthew 5:48

Ye therefore shall be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Of course, this is one statemen taken out of context. But since you did it above, I thought I would back up your quotations with Scripture.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
DrPatti (1342 posts) Click to EMail DrPatti Click to send private message to DrPatti Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
08-25-01, 12:55 PM (GMT)
16. "RE: Ellen White's greatest hits"
Of course, this is one statemen taken out of context. But since you did it above, I thought I would back up your quotations with Scripture.

Absolutely! Have you achieved this yet, Geoff? If not you had better start cracking! You may not have much time in which to accomplish this.

Or...
You can trust in the Lord Jesus Christ and have His perfect life and obedience credited to your account. Your choice.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Geoff (39 posts) Click to EMail Geoff Click to send private message to Geoff Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
08-25-01, 02:09 PM (GMT)
21. "RE: Ellen White's greatest hits"
what, you think I don't know that? Is it because I am an SDA, or because I have stated that I need to earn my way into heaven, because that's what EGW and the Bible teach?

Take your blinders off Patti. Stop assuming what I do and don't believe as an Adventist. This topic isn't about perfection, it's about misquoting both the Bible and Ellen White.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Janice (1198 posts) Click to EMail Janice Click to send private message to Janice Click to view user profile Click to send message via ICQ Click to check IP address of the poster
08-25-01, 11:30 AM (GMT)
10. "RE: Ellen White's greatest hits"
>Matthew 5:48
>
>Ye therefore shall be perfect, as
>your heavenly Father is perfect.
>
>
>Of course, this
>is one statemen taken out
>of context. But since you
>did it above, I thought
>I would back up your
>quotations with Scripture.

What version Bible do you use? I use the NAB Catholic version. Matt 5:48 So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.

This version is telling us to be perfect.

The Bible you use seems to be saying that we will be made perfect quite without any volition on our part.

Which Bible to use? Hmmm. That is what the question should be.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Geoff (39 posts) Click to EMail Geoff Click to send private message to Geoff Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
08-25-01, 12:37 PM (GMT)
13. "RE: Ellen White's greatest hits"
This was the King James, I think.
  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
DrPatti (1342 posts) Click to EMail DrPatti Click to send private message to DrPatti Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
08-25-01, 12:56 PM (GMT)
18. "Not the KJV"
Matt 5:48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (KJV)

It is a command.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Geoff (39 posts) Click to EMail Geoff Click to send private message to Geoff Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
08-25-01, 02:07 PM (GMT)
20. "RE: Not the KJV"
So take it up with Jesus, not me. Worry about your perfection, not mine.

I was responding to his posts. He was taking all those quotes saying that EGW preaching perfection and obedience. Well, according to his method of quoting, the Bible teaches the same thing.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
DrPatti (1342 posts) Click to EMail DrPatti Click to send private message to DrPatti Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
08-25-01, 02:16 PM (GMT)
23. "RE: Not the KJV"
So take it up with Jesus, not me.

Careful! Your 'love' for your fellow man is showing!

Worry about your perfection, not mine.

I don't have to worry about my perfection; I stand perfect before God already.


I was responding to his posts. He was taking all those quotes saying that EGW preaching perfection and obedience.

Which she does. But does that justify misquoting the Scripture?

Well, according to his method of quoting, the Bible teaches the same thing.

One big difference. In each of these passages, Ellen doesn't tell us that this perfection is ours RIGHT NOW. Nor does she tell us that there is NO WAY we can produce it ourselves. Nor does she tell us that when we believe in Jesus Christ, that His life of perfect obedience is at that moment credited to our account. In Him, we stand perfect before God. There is nothing of value that we can add to His already accomplished and perfected righteousness.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Geoff (39 posts) Click to EMail Geoff Click to send private message to Geoff Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
08-25-01, 03:22 PM (GMT)
32. "RE: Not the KJV"
key thing is "in each of these passages." Can we assume that this is all she wrote on the matter?
  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
gregtravillian (22 posts) Click to EMail gregtravillian Click to send private message to gregtravillian Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
08-25-01, 03:41 PM (GMT)
39. "RE: Not the KJV"
>key thing is "in each of
>these passages." Can we assume
>that this is all she
>wrote on the matter?

No, we can not:

"But while God can be just, and yet justify the sinner through the merits of Christ, no man can cover his soul with the garments of Christ's righteousness while practicing known sins,
or neglecting known duties. God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul. (Selected Messages Book 1, page 366)


  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Geoff (39 posts) Click to EMail Geoff Click to send private message to Geoff Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
09-01-01, 02:49 PM (GMT)
129. "RE: Not the KJV"
>>key thing is "in each of
>>these passages." Can we assume
>>that this is all she
>>wrote on the matter?
>
>No, we can not:
>
>"But while God can be just,
>and yet justify the sinner
>through the merits of Christ,
>no man can cover his
>soul with the garments of
>Christ's righteousness while practicing known
>sins,
>or neglecting known duties. God requires
>the entire surrender of the
>heart, before justification can take
>place
;

Is this a lie, or is it the truth? Must we give ourselves totally to God to be justified, yes or no?

and in order for
>man to retain justification, there
>must be continual obedience
, through
>active, living faith that works
>by love and purifies the
>soul. (Selected Messages Book 1,
>page 366)

If we are new creatures in Christ, do we do the things we used to do? Do we willfully disobey God if we are truly his children?

I suppose this raises the question of "once saved, always saved." Do you believe in that one?


  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
gregtravillian (22 posts) Click to EMail gregtravillian Click to send private message to gregtravillian Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
09-01-01, 07:14 PM (GMT)
136. "RE: Not the KJV"
LAST EDITED ON 09-01-01 AT 07:19 PM (GMT)

>or neglecting known duties. God requires
>the entire surrender of the
>heart, before justification can take
>place;

Geoff: Is this a lie, or is it the truth? Must we give ourselves totally to God to be justified, yes or no?

Greg: It's an absolute lie. The only requirement to be justified is to believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. I'll be quite honest and say I still wrestle with God, as do you and everyone else reading this. Does this mean I'm not justified? No. The surrender of self takes place over a life time, and just because I'm having a bad day does not mean I am lost. In fact, people do not first come to God with personal honor, they first come to God hoping to save their souls. An unsaved man is not capable of straightening up BEFORE he comes to God, he is only capable of believing in Christ.

>and in order for
>man to retain justification, there
>must be continual obedience, through
>active, living faith that works
>by love and purifies the
>soul. (Selected Messages Book 1,
>page 366)

Geoff: If we are new creatures in Christ, do we do the things we used to do? Do we willfully disobey God if we are truly his children?

Greg: I don't know what your question has to do with EGW's statement because she says nothing about "willfully disobey", she says "continual obedience", big difference. Nice try, though.
In effect, EGW is saying here that justification must be worked for in the beginning and you have to work to maintain it later on.

Geoff: I suppose this raises the question of "once saved, always saved." Do you believe in that one?

Greg: I don't know about "once saved, always saved", but I do believe in predestination, which was reinforced after a nearly year long study of Romans.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
DrPatti (1342 posts) Click to EMail DrPatti Click to send private message to DrPatti Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
08-25-01, 04:06 PM (GMT)
41. "Wow!"
That one is pretty hard to spin away.
  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
tmac1238 (143 posts) Click to EMail tmac1238 Click to send private message to tmac1238 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
08-26-01, 06:53 AM (GMT)
53. "RE: Wow!"
>That one is pretty hard to
>spin away.


If only we had the void of conscience of those who are spinning away CHRIST'S GREATEST HITS!

For those seeking the truth on these matters, visit my web site:

THE LAST WORD ON ADVENTIST TRUTH!

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Janice (1198 posts) Click to EMail Janice Click to send private message to Janice Click to view user profile Click to send message via ICQ Click to check IP address of the poster
08-25-01, 03:14 PM (GMT)
27. "But, DrPatti, we are not perfect now. We won't be until we get to heaven."
>So take it up with Jesus,
>not me.

>
>Careful! Your 'love' for your
>fellow man is showing!
>
> Worry about your perfection, not
>mine.

>
>I don't have to
>worry about my perfection; I
>stand perfect before God already.

>
>
>
>I was responding to his posts.
>He was taking all those
>quotes saying that EGW preaching
>perfection and obedience.

>
>Which she does. But does
>that justify misquoting the Scripture?
>
>
>Well, according to his method of
>quoting, the Bible teaches the
>same thing.

>
>One big difference. In each
>of these passages, Ellen doesn't
>tell us that this perfection
>is ours RIGHT NOW.
>Nor does she tell us
>that there is NO WAY
>we can produce it ourselves.
> Nor does she tell
>us that when we believe
>in Jesus Christ, that His
>life of perfect obedience is
>at that moment credited to
>our account.
In Him,
>we stand perfect before God.
> There is nothing of
>value that we can add
>to His already accomplished and
>perfected righteousness.


Paul was forever correcting the Christians of his time. Telling them they had to finish the race. No, we are not perfect. We are only human, and as human, can not know perfection until we die and get to heaven.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
DrPatti (1342 posts) Click to EMail DrPatti Click to send private message to DrPatti Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
08-25-01, 03:33 PM (GMT)
35. "We can have perfection now."
No, we are not perfect. We are only human, and as human, can not know perfection until we die and get to heaven.

Yes, you are right! But we can know that we are perfect by faith. When we believe in Jesus Christ, we are credited with His perfect obedience. We are clothed in His righteousness. You are right. We cannot see it with our physical eyes, but we can know it by faith. We have nothing to fear from the judgment, because our lives are covered by the righteousness of Jesus Christ.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
David Conklin (1966 posts) Click to EMail David%20Conklin Click to send private message to David%20Conklin Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
08-25-01, 03:38 PM (GMT)
38. "RE: We can have perfection now."
I already said that: "in Christ". No legalism involved at all.
+++
Thinking is the hardest work there is, which is the probable reason why so few engage in it. - Henry Ford, Sr.
  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
DrPatti (1342 posts) Click to EMail DrPatti Click to send private message to DrPatti Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
08-25-01, 04:04 PM (GMT)
40. "RE: We can have perfection now."
I already said that: "in Christ". No legalism involved at all.

But that is not what Ellen says.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
tmac1238 (143 posts) Click to EMail tmac1238 Click to send private message to tmac1238 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
08-26-01, 07:01 AM (GMT)
54. "RE: We can have perfection now."
>I already said that: "in Christ".
>No legalism involved at all.

>
>
>But that is not what Ellen
>says.


This obsession with Ellen White! Even calling us Ellenologists when all can see that it is as if all you all study every hour of your lives is Ellen White!

God is providing a very special place for you and Mommy where you will be able to see Ellen White from outside the holy city!

But I thought the grace of Christ opened ones head and hearing. Christ often used the expression, "He that hath an ear, let him hear..." How come it is that I can't get an answer about CHRIST'S GREATEST HITS! Am I going to get another answer completely off the point with then a despot assertion that the question has been answered?

At the beginning of this thread, Gregg showed us Ellen White's Greatest Hits in his unearthly obsession above Christ. I then submitted CHRIST'S GREATEST HITS and we struggle to get the spirit of Christ to open up the understanding of His fellow Gods here from the Vatican!

THE LAST WORD ON ADVENTIST TRUTH!

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

 

 

Dr. Patti EGW I

Dr. Patti EGW II

Dr. Patti EGW III

Dr. Patti EGW IV

Dr. Patti EGW V

Dr. Patti EGW VI

Dr. Patti EGW VII

This is Part VIII

 

TO THE ADVENTIST BETRAYAL PAGE

 

TO JESUIT INFILTRATION PAGE

 

TO JESUIT DIALOGUES PAGE

 

TO THE ISSUES OF FREEDOM PAGE

 

TO Home Page