>Was the Bible speaking the truth
>when it said we must
>be perfect as God is
>perfect, and then turns around
>and says God only is
>perfect?
>
>It shows the conditions that must
>be met before we can
>be accepted by a holy
>God.

<font color = blue>So it WAS telling the truth.
</font color>
>
>This ain't making EGW equal to
>the Bible, by the way.
>
>
>LOL! That is exactly what
>you are doing!
<font color = blue>
Geoff here,
If I say that what I am doing is what I am doing, or what I am not doing is what I am not doing, then I am speaking the truth. Do <b>not</b> project your petty prejudices onto my writings like that, ok? You show me how my post up there makes Ellen White equal to the Bible.
</font color>
>
>When the Bible speaks of both
>things, it shows the importance
>of justification (our being accounted
>right by virtue of Christ's
>sacrifice)

>Period. < enough. is ]Jesus>Yet
>you, for some reason want
>to add our filthy rags
>righteousness to the perfect and
>holy work of Jesus Christ.
> What that does is
>take away any assurance that
>we can have in our
>salvation.

<font color = blue><b>Stop putting words in my mouth.</b> It is not my fault that you seem to wish to stay the same person you were when Christ saved you. I am never saved by what I do. You saw me say anything about adding my works to what God has done?

You think that living a good life means that I don't have assurance of salvation? You are wrong. What you are telling me is that if I keep the Sabbath or keep God's law, I'm guilty of legalism. You are judging my motives. You think that I'm doing it because I think I'm not good enough. It NEVER crossed your mind that Adventists and others keep the Sabbath and exhort people to follow God's law because <b>that's what God wants them to do</b> I'm assured of my salvation. Not from my works, but from God's. I can loose my salvation. Not because God will take it from me, but because I won't give Him my all and do what He wants me to do. That's not legalism, that's the truth. If it makes you uncomfortable to think that God wnats us to be the best that we can be, well tough. Don't call those who call you to a higher life through God's power legalists.</font color>

> and sanctifiction (our living holy
>by virtue of Christ's strength
>in us).
>
>Where does the Bible define sanctification
>in those terms?

<font color = blue>Fine, you define it.</font color>

>Both are equally important, neither is
>"better" than the other,
>
>BALONEY! How can you
>say that! Of course
>the perfect righteousness of Jesus
>Christ, His life and fulfillment
>of all things, and His
>atoning death is FAR superior
>to ANYTHING that sinful human
>flesh can produce!

<font color = blue>Baloney yourself. First off, sactification is done by Christ as well, not by us. I said nothing about what "sinful human flesh" can produce. I'm glad YOU said this. It clearly shows that what you are fighting agaisnt is your image of Adventism, which you refuse to drop at any cost. You're jousting with windmills, and as long as you hang on to your irrational hatred of the SDA church and false portraying of its teachings, you are not being a Christian. Anyone can see how you simply say "WORKS BAD, WORKS BAD, GRACE GOOD, GRACE GOOD!" and act as if that's the whole story. Time will tell.

To anyone who reads this, and reads the exchange, and reads anything Patti or people like her say about the SDA church:

FInd out for yourself. Don't take my word, or her word, or anyone's word about what Adventists do and don't believe. Ask one personally. You may find a good Adventist, you may find one who fits the description Patti wishes all Adventists were like. Look it up for yourself. Read the Bible, and see that we are saved by grace, not by works; and that Jesus expects us to live for Him. We're not the same after we accept Him; we shouldn't be.
</font color>

Geoff wrote:
"I'm assured of my salvation. Not from my works, but from God's. I can loose my salvation. Not because God will take it from me, but because I won't give Him my all and do what He wants me to do. That's not legalism, that's the truth."

No, Geoff, that's a contradiction! You are saying that our works have no merit to save us, while at the same time a lack of works can condemn us. If you think I am misrepresenting your postion, then by all means clarify the issue.

>Geoff wrote:
>"I'm assured of my salvation. Not
>from my works, but from
>God's. I can loose my
>salvation. Not because God will
>take it from me, but
>because I won't give Him
>my all and do what
>He wants me to do.
>That's not legalism, that's the
>truth."
>
>No, Geoff, that's a contradiction! You
>are saying that our works
>have no merit to save
>us, while at the same
>time a lack of works
>can condemn us. If you
>think I am misrepresenting your
>postion, then by all means
>clarify the issue.

What is the evidence that we are saved? We can say we are saved. We can say that Christ lives in us, and that we are secure in Him. But what proves that we are saved? I don't mean prove to yourself, but prove to the world. I mean, talk is cheap, and while you may say that you're saved, I don't know that.

Our actions are the evidence to the world that Christ lives in us. Paul said that "faith without works is dead." I am not saying that a lack of works condemns us; I will say that a lack of works means that we are most likely not truly connected to Jesus. That goes for me as well as you.

You see, the Christian life isn't an easy road. It's great to say "Jesus paid it all" and that is the truth. That doesn't mean that Jesus does it all and we do nothing after that to enhance our Christian life and witness to others. If we claim to have a connection to Jesus, but yet we complain that His yoke is hard, and that we don't need to do what He wants us to do, and that we would rather do what we think is right than what He says; then we don't have a connection to Him, do we?

What we do (works) is important. Not because we do it, but because of why we do it. I asked in a previous thread, and I ask again here: Are works intrinsically evil? Why do Christians today seem to go to great lengths to avoid discussing good works, or bringing up legalism whenever works are mentioned?

Legalism is something to be avoided at all times, but doing good works is not legalism. Doing good works because we are supposed to do good works is not legalism; it's doing the right thing. Doing good things because we think it will earn us points in heaven is legalism, because nothing we can do will earn us anything.

Please get this straight, and I mean no offense by that. We Adventists press keeping the Sabbath and tithe and such other things not because we will be saved by doing them or not saved by not doing them, but because it is the right thing to do, and choosing not to do the right thing is choosing the wrong thing.

Do you understand where we are coming from now? I can debate and dialogue with you guys if you think that we are mistaken about our doctrines, but I can't do that if you keep assuming that I (and other Adventists) believe what we believe because we are legalists, especially when we state and show clearly that we are not. For example, if you think I'm wrong in saying we should keep the Sabbath, I can discuss that with you. If you think that I'm trying to save myself by keeping the Sabbath and saying that we need to keep the Sabbath to be saved, you are judging me and are going against what I have actually said. Do you see?

Geoff, here is my definition of a legalist. A legalist is someone who tries to earn God's favor through his own performance. Would you agree or disagree with this definition?

>Geoff, here is my definition of
>a legalist. A legalist is
>someone who tries to earn
>God's favor through his own
>performance. Would you agree or
>disagree with this definition?

I agree...

>Was the Bible speaking the truth
>when it said we must
>be perfect as God is
>perfect, and then turns around
>and says God only is
>perfect?
>
>It shows the conditions that must
>be met before we can
>be accepted by a holy
>God.
>
>This ain't making EGW equal to
>the Bible, by the way.
>
>
>LOL! That is exactly what
>you are doing!
>

LOL! As if Ellen White created the concept! As if she is the only one who said it! Who does not know that some 60 years ago all the mainstream denominational churches even revered the 10 commandments and exhorted all to obey them?

>When the Bible speaks of both
>things, it shows the importance
>of justification (our being accounted
>right by virtue of Christ's
>sacrifice)
>
>Period. < enough. is ]Jesus>Yet
>you, for some reason want
>to add our filthy rags
>righteousness to the perfect and
>holy work of Jesus Christ.
> What that does is
>take away any assurance that
>we can have in our
>salvation.
>

A false despot accusation here. This is a persistent accusation like the charge that we are legalists. All things considered, we call this despot a worker for the Vatican. She keeps putting things into our words that we did not put or say and nothing we say or do can get her to stop with this obsession.

Jesus work for the salvation of man is not yet finished. When we sin, we pray to God for forgiveness. Why? And when we pray, where do our prayers go? Is Christ busy in heaven right now? Despots will tell us that Christ's work is finished, but will not show us why Christ is not back here for His saints whom He loves so dearly!

> and sanctifiction (our living holy
>by virtue of Christ's strength
>in us).
>
>Where does the Bible define sanctification
>in those terms?
>
>Both are equally important, neither is
>"better" than the other,
>
>BALONEY! How can you
>say that! Of course
>the perfect righteousness of Jesus
>Christ, His life and fulfillment
>of all things, and His
>atoning death is FAR superior
>to ANYTHING that sinful human
>flesh can produce! I
>am so glad you said
>this. You are demarcating
>very clearly the distinctions between
>SDAism and the Gospel of
>the New Testament. All
>our righteousnesses--that is our GOOD
>WORKS, Geoff; it doesn't even
>address our sins--are as filthy
>rags! And yet you
>say that they are equal
>in importance to the perfection
>of the life of Jesus
>Christ and His atoning death!
>
>

How else can such evil people excuse their works? Again, Dr. Patti puts connotations to the words of a person who has not said them. SHE SHOWS NO CARE AT ALL in doing this. She cares not to be curcumspect, yet she complains because I know she works for Rome!

Why then has she not answered my questions about CHRIST'S GREATEST HITS? Christ was asked several times how a man must be saved. 1 Cor. 10 shows us the Gospel through the Old Testament.

>and focusing on the one without
>the other is presenting a
>false gospel.
>
>No. The false Gospel is
>outlined very clearly in Galatians.
> It is the addition
>of human works to trust
>in the finished work of
>Jesus Christ.
>

No. It is believing in these works for salvation and not in Jesus Christ. Once you believe in Jesus and enter into communion with Him, He will tell you what to do and what not to do in the Christian walk. That is why we Protestants believe that it is wrong to tell lies, unlike others here.

>Galatians 3:1 You foolish
>Galatians! Who has bewitched you?
>Before your very eyes Jesus
>Christ was clearly portrayed as
>crucified.
>2 I would like
>to learn just one thing
>from you: Did you receive
>the Spirit by observing the
>law, or by believing what
>you heard?
>3 Are you so
>foolish? After beginning with the
>Spirit, are you now trying
>to attain your goal by
>human effort?
>4 Have you suffered
>so much for nothing--if it
>really was for nothing?
>5 Does God give
>you his Spirit and work
>miracles among you because you
>observe the law, or because
>you believe what you heard?
>
>6 Consider Abraham: "He
>believed God, and it was
>credited to him as righteousness."
>

And therefore Abraham then did what he liked!

>7 Understand, then, that
>those who believe are children
>of Abraham.
>
>Rom 4:3 What does the
>Scripture say? "Abraham believed God,
>and it was credited to
>him as righteousness."
>4 Now when a
>man works, his wages are
>not credited to him as
>a gift, but as an
>obligation.
>5 However, to
>the man who does not
>work but trusts God who
>justifies the wicked, his faith
>is credited as righteousness.
>
>Thank you, though, for showing us
>how Ellen (and SDAs who
>follow her) diverge from the
>Gospel.
>
>May God open your eyes and
>convince you of your own
>inability to please Him, and
>of the all-sufficiency of the
>saving work of Jesus Christ
>for sinful humanity.
>
>Grace and peace,
>Patti

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.

Therefore Vatican Patti continues her lies and slander. Read 1 Cor. 10 and Hebrews 11 to find the true Gospel. This Gospel shows that Christ bought salvation and then made a covenant with man to show him the kinds of people He will issue His gift to!

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