Doing what God asks is the ONLY way to show yourself his follower. The whole issue of sin was over following God's commands of submission to his commandment. If Adam and Eve had obeyed God's commandment and stayed away from the tree, we wouldn't be in this mess. If had obeyed God and sought forgiveness for his pride in heaven, sin wouldn't have ever even come to this earth.

Before you try to say I'm promoting works only, don't forget it is also a command to believe on Jesus Christ for salvation. Many people have a bad taste in their mouth when they hear the word commandments. It is simply ANYTHING God asks of humanity.

Thus, truly, one can only be in favor with God by following what he says. That's the definition of obedience.

Michael

>Doing what God asks is the
>ONLY way to show yourself
>his follower. The whole issue
>of sin was over following
>God's commands of submission to
>his commandment. If Adam and
>Eve had obeyed God's commandment
>and stayed away from the
>tree, we wouldn't be in
>this mess. If
> had
>obeyed God and sought forgiveness
>for his pride in heaven,
>sin wouldn't have ever even
>come to this earth.
>
>Before you try to say I'm
>promoting works only, don't forget
>it is also a command
>to believe on Jesus Christ
>for salvation. Many people have
>a bad taste in their
>mouth when they hear the
>word commandments. It is simply
>ANYTHING God asks of humanity.
>
>
>
>Thus, truly, one can only be
>in favor with God by
>following what he says. That's
>the definition of obedience.
>
>Michael

It seems to me that Adventism is pretty darn close to Catholicism. At least from what I have noticed here. A lot more closer than say, Pentecostal or Baptist.

But on this obedience stance, it is well documented in the Bible. We have to be obedient otherwise, people wouldn't be able to see Jesus in us.

Janice wrote:
It seems to me that Adventism is pretty darn close to Catholicism.

You are right again, sister.

Grace and peace,
Patti

Catholics believe that those who have never heard of God, the Trinity, or even Christ can still be saved. And the only way we are going to be saved is through God's grace which allows us the strength to obey God's laws.

You are right. That is what Catholics believe. And that is what SDAs (in general) believe also.

Therefore, if you are not keeping all of God's laws perfectly, then you are truly not "experiencing" God's grace as you ought, correct? One must therefore keep close tabs on his/her performance as a measure of his/her standing with God.

Which is what the reformers reacted against. For Luther, and the other reformers, grace was God's infinite mercy to undeserving and sinful humans alone. Our acceptance with God is based solely on His mercy in accepting us for the sake of the merits of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

But basically this is right. I do feel a bit uncomfortable though with the phrase, "obtain His favor". For unless God shows us mercy, none of us is righteous enough to enter heaven.

None of us is righteous enough in our human flesh to enter heaven even after God shows us His mercy. Mercy is only given to those who do not deserve it. If we deserved it, it would not be mercy, but it would be earned. Salvation is based on God's mercy toward sinful humans. Alone. We can never earn, deserve, merit it. There is only One Who is righteous. And it is His life and His death on our behalf that is our fitness for heaven, our acceptance with God.

>Catholics believe that those who have
>never heard of God, the
>Trinity, or even Christ can
>still be saved. And the
>only way we are going
>to be saved is through
>God's grace which allows us
>the strength to obey God's
>laws.
>
>You are right. That is
>what Catholics believe. And
>that is what SDAs (in
>general) believe also.
>
>Therefore, if you are not keeping
>all of God's laws perfectly,
>then you are truly not
>"experiencing" God's grace as you
>ought, correct? One must
>therefore keep close tabs on
>his/her performance as a measure
>of his/her standing with God.
>
>

Vatican Patti tells us that Adventist believe that those who never even heard of God can still be saved, yet she puts in a word for us before the whole word telling them what Adventists are like. With that fact, Adventists believe that only those who are keeping God's law "perfectly" can be saved. There appears to be a contradiction here somewhere. Who is it that doesn't know God and yet keep His laws perfectly? Still the despot language is clear. Why have a debate forum if there are strange people here teaching us to respect differing opinions while telling us what we must accept?

>None of us is righteous enough
>in our human flesh to
>enter heaven even after God
>shows us His mercy.
>Mercy is only given to
>those who do not deserve
>it. If we deserved
>it, it would not be
>mercy, but it would be
>earned. Salvation is based
>on God's mercy toward sinful
>humans. Alone.

This cannot be true and the strange poster saying this has an obsession against Ellen White!

Can someone please explain to me why I have not yet seen anything that deals with

CHRIST'S GREATEST HITS?

THE LAST WORD ON ADVENTIST TRUTH!

Beep, beep, beep (the sound of a dump truck about to unload):

"Christ does not lessen the claims of the law. In unmistakable language He presents obedience to it as the condition of eternal life--the same condition that was required of Adam before his fall. The Lord expects no less of the soul now than He expected of man in Paradise, perfect obedience, unblemished righteousness. The requirement under the covenant of grace is just as broad as the requirement made in Eden--harmony with God's law, which is holy, just, and good." (Christ's Object Lessons, page 391)

>Beep, beep, beep (the sound of
>a dump truck about to
>unload):
>
>"Christ does not lessen the claims
>of the law. In unmistakable
>language He presents obedience to
>it as the condition of
>eternal life--the same condition that
>was required of Adam before
>his fall. The Lord expects
>no less of the soul
>now than He expected of
>man in Paradise, perfect obedience,
>unblemished righteousness. The requirement under
>the covenant of grace is
>just as broad as the
>requirement made in Eden--harmony with
>God's law, which is holy,
>just, and good." (Christ's Object
>Lessons, page 391)

How can people be "perfect" in obedience to God while we are still in the flesh. We inherited the sin of Adam (original sin) and our body's are prone to sin.

We are to strive for perfection, but it is quite impossible for humans to do. When I was in grade school, I was told to walk in the footsteps of the Lord. I was never to waver from His Way. I got totally depressed for no one ever told me that I would fail. That being human I was prone to sin. I tried my best to be sinless, but I became convinced God hated me in the process.

So striving for perfection is the best I can do. What do you guys do about the sins you commit, for I know all people commit sins? At least all those who are cognizant enough to read this.

In Jesus' Name,

Janice

Excellent questions, Janice!

How can people be "perfect" in obedience to God while we are still in the flesh. We inherited the sin of Adam (original sin) and our body's are prone to sin.

Absolutely!

We are to strive for perfection, but it is quite impossible for humans to do.

You are right! But do you think that a righteous and holy God will accept less than perfect obedience? Do you think that "if our hearts are in the right place," that He will merely overlook our sin?

There is an answer, you know. And that answer is in the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Rom. 1:16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.
17 For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."

When we believe in Jesus Christ, our sins are forgiven because of His atoning death, correct? We stand before God "as if" we had never sinned, do you believed this? Well, what happens after? Two things:

1. We remain sinful in ourselves; we continually live in repentence of our sinful condition and depend on the mercy of God in forgiving sinners such as ourselves.

Romans 4:5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.
6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him."

Notice it does not say, "Blessed is he who has overcome his sinful nature; who has stopped sinning." It says, "Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against him." we are dependent upon God's mercy in forgiving us helpless sinners.

2. We are covered with the robe of Christ's perfect obedience. His obedience is credited to our account, so we have the assurance to "approach the throne of grace with boldness."

Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

His grace is sufficient, His forgiveness is totally efficacious, and His righteousness is absolute and perfect. And it is ours, credited to our account when we trust in His promise to save us, just as it was credited to Abraham.

So striving for perfection is the best I can do.

Actually, depending upon the assurance of God's promises is the best that you can do. Trusting in the merits of Jesus Christ. You can know that you are accepted by God just as you are, not because of what you do or do not do, but because of what Jesus Christ has done. He has fully atoned for your sin with His blood, and He offers you His robe of perfect righteousness so that you may stand spotless before the throne of God.

Hallelujah! What a salvation is ours! His grace is sufficient.

Grace and peace,
Patti

LAST EDITED ON 08-25-01 AT 06:45 AM (GMT)

When one is "in Christ" (one of Paul's favorite motifs; used 74 times in 73 verses) one is counted as perfect for He is perfect.
+++
Thinking is the hardest work there is, which is the probable reason why so few engage in it. - Henry Ford, Sr.

When one is "in Christ" (one of Paul's favorite motifs; used 74 times in 73 verses) one is counted as perfect for He is perfect.

True. But Ellen never says that in the little "gems" that Greg is posting.

Of course she didn't say that in the portions Greg posted, because Greg didn't post the sections where she DID say that.

See why David gets upset? See how you insinuated that Ellen White said only that one thing? That is the sneakiness that I said "Shame on you" for. Such underhandedness is beyond you Patti, as a Christian. Be upfront.

OK. Show us the context. Show us the sentences that negate the blatant legalism in these passages.

Sanctification is a progressive work. It is a continuous work, leading human beings higher and still higher. It brings perfection. It does not leave love behind, but brings it constantly into the life as the very essence of Christlikeness

As the things of nature show their appreciation of the Master Worker by doing their best to beautify the earth and to represent God's perfection, so human beings should strive in
their sphere to represent God's perfection, allowing Him to work out through them His purposes of justice, mercy, and goodness.

These words were recorded for the help of every striving soul. Paul holds up the standard of perfection and shows how it may be reached. "Work out your own salvation," he says, "for it is God which worketh in you."

He who bears with him a continual sense of the presence of Christ cannot indulge self-confidence or self-righteousness. None of the prophets or apostles made proud boasts of holiness. The nearer they came to perfection of character, the less worthy and righteous they viewed themselves. But those who have the least sense of the perfection of Jesus, those whose eyes are least directed to Him, are the ones who make the strongest claim to perfection.

You accused her of blatant legalism above. Note that nowhere does she say that it is this perfection required of us from God that saves us. She (and the Bible) says that this perfection is required from those who are saved.

I'm not perfect. I'm the first to admit it. The Bible is telling me to accept Jesus as my Saviour, and to be perfect as He is. Not so that I can be saved, but because I am saved. This isn't legalism, it's the Christian life.

Sanctification is a progressive work.

Now show me this from Scripture.

>Sanctification is a progressive work.
>
>
>Now show me this from Scripture.
>
2Th 2:13
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Heb 12:14
Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.

To me, these texts indicate that it is a process to be pursued through the strength of the Spirit.

That's the problem, Geoff. Ellen didn't say just one thing, she came down on both sides of the fence. Which brings us to the question, was she speaking the truth when she wrote these four quotes?

Greg T.

Was the Bible speaking the truth when it said we must be perfect as God is perfect, and then turns around and says God only is perfect?

This ain't making EGW equal to the Bible, by the way.

When the Bible speaks of both things, it shows the importance of justification (our being accounted right by virtue of Christ's sacrifice) and sanctifiction (our living holy by virtue of Christ's strength in us). Both are equally important, neither is "better" than the other, and focusing on the one without the other is presenting a false gospel. That's why the Bible and Ellen White speak of BOTH of them.

Was the Bible speaking the truth when it said we must be perfect as God is perfect, and then turns around and says God only is perfect?

It shows the conditions that must be met before we can be accepted by a holy God.

This ain't making EGW equal to the Bible, by the way.

LOL! That is exactly what you are doing!

When the Bible speaks of both things, it shows the importance of justification (our being accounted right by virtue of Christ's sacrifice)

Period. Jesus is enough. Yet you, for some reason want to add our filthy rags righteousness to the perfect and holy work of Jesus Christ. What that does is take away any assurance that we can have in our salvation.

and sanctifiction (our living holy by virtue of Christ's strength in us).

Where does the Bible define sanctification in those terms?

Both are equally important, neither is "better" than the other,

BALONEY! How can you say that! Of course the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ, His life and fulfillment of all things, and His atoning death is FAR superior to ANYTHING that sinful human flesh can produce! I am so glad you said this. You are demarcating very clearly the distinctions between SDAism and the Gospel of the New Testament. All our righteousnesses--that is our GOOD WORKS, Geoff; it doesn't even address our sins--are as filthy rags! And yet you say that they are equal in importance to the perfection of the life of Jesus Christ and His atoning death!

and focusing on the one without the other is presenting a false gospel.

No. The false Gospel is outlined very clearly in Galatians. It is the addition of human works to trust in the finished work of Jesus Christ.

Galatians 3:1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified.
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?
3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?
4 Have you suffered so much for nothing--if it really was for nothing?
5 Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?
6 Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
7 Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham.

Rom 4:3 What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
4 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation.
5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

Thank you, though, for showing us how Ellen (and SDAs who follow her) diverge from the Gospel.

May God open your eyes and convince you of your own inability to please Him, and of the all-sufficiency of the saving work of Jesus Christ for sinful humanity.

Grace and peace,
Patti