Ted:
You are ecumenical and you do subscribe to the denominations uniting under one body.

Why are you telling me what I believe? I told you exactly what I believe above:

That all Christians are already united under one Head: Jesus Christ.

Why don't you go back to your own forum where all of the posters there believe your little fantasies? And where you can kick off anyone who disagrees with you.

On the other hand, stay. You are giving a wonderful example to other Christians of exactly what SDAism is all about.

May God deal gently with you.

Grace and peace,
Patti

I'm just getting warmed up:

"Christ came to this earth and lived a life of perfect obedience, that men and women, through his grace, might also live lives of perfect obedience. This is necessary to their salvation. Without holiness no man shall see the Lord." RH,
3-15-1906

LAST EDITED ON 08-31-01 AT 07:36 AM (GMT)

>I'm just getting warmed up:
>
>"Christ came to this earth and
>lived a life of perfect
>obedience, that men and women,
>through his grace, might also
>live lives of perfect obedience.
>This is necessary to their
>salvation. Without holiness no man
>shall see the Lord." RH, 3-15-1906

I like the words "through his grace".

Here's the preceding paragraph:

"Christ is the sinner's only hope. By his death he brought salvation within the reach of all. Through his grace all may become loyal subjects of God's kingdom. Only by his sacrifice could salvation be brought within man's reach. This sacrifice has made it possible for men and women to fulfil the conditions laid down in the councils of heaven."

And the all-important following paragraph:

"Before us is held out the wonderful possibility of being like Christ-- obedient to all the principles of the law of God. But of ourselves we are utterly powerless to attain to this condition. All that is good in man comes to him through Christ. The holiness that God's Word declares we must have before we can be saved is the result of the working of divine grace as we bow in submission to the discipline and restraining influence of the Spirit of truth."

David wrote:
I like the words "through his grace".

You would! This is an issue that is very basic to Roman Catholic soteriology; that "grace" is not "merely" God's infinite mercy toward undeserving sinners, but it is also a regenerating force in the lives of the believers. The RCC affirmed this in the Council of Trent; the Reformers denied it.

Here's the preceding paragraph:

"Christ is the sinner's only hope. By his death he brought salvation within the reach of all. Through his grace all may become loyal subjects of God's kingdom. Only by his sacrifice could salvation be brought within man's reach. This sacrifice has made it possible for men and women to fulfil the conditions laid down in the councils of heaven."

Therein lies the problem. She, like RCC theology, did not teach that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ "fulfilled the conditions" for the salvation of mankind. She believed that He only "made it possible for men and women to fulfil the conditions." That a big difference between Protestantism and Catholicism.

Heb 9:12 "He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption."

"He has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself."

Ellen and the RCC -- Salvation is what man can accomplish.
Protestantism -- Salvation is what God has accomplished in Jesus Christ.

And the all-important following paragraph:

A very revealing paragraph. Also very unscriptural.

"Before us is held out the wonderful possibility of being like Christ-- obedient to all the principles of the law of God.

This is the converted evangelist of the Gospel, Paul, speaking:

14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.
15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.
16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good.
17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.
18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.
19 For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing.
20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me.
22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law;
23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members.
24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?
25 Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

But of ourselves we are utterly powerless to attain to this condition. All that is good in man comes to him through Christ.

All that is good in man is credited to Him by trusting in the one act of righteousness by which the many are made righteous.

The holiness that God's Word declares we must have before we can be saved

Did I hear her correctly? The holiness .. we must have BEFORE WE CAN BE SAVED??? There you go, Greg! Your case is made in toto! She teaches that we must be holy even before we are justified! Now that is really a case of a man trying to pull himself off the ground by tugging on his bootstrings.

Reminds me of my uncle. When my daughter was a baby (about 13 months old), we spent a weekend with my uncle and his family. She fell down and started crying, and my uncle said, "It's OK, sweetheart. Just come over here, and I will help you up." Which she, being a baby, did without realizing the contradictions. And that is what Ellen (via David) is telling us that we must do. We must help ourselves up before God is going to save us.

is the result of the working of divine grace as we bow in submission to the discipline and restraining influence of the Spirit of truth."

There it is, again! That Roman Catholic definition of grace.

Have any of you ever noticed how the SDAs and Catholics are always in harmony on the doctrine of salvation? (The single most important issue in the Reformation, btw.) The irony of it all is that SDAism claims to be the "only true heirs to the Reformation." And yet they stand opposite the Reformers on just about every major point of contention.

And they call Protestantism "Babylon" (confusion)!

This is necessary to their salvation.

This is what saves them

See the difference?

This is necessary to their salvation.
This is what saves them

See the difference?

LOL! Sure I do!

>This is necessary to their salvation.
>
>This is what saves them
>
>See the difference?
>
>LOL! Sure I do!

Did you see my quote of Matthew 19 above Dr. Patti as I demonstrated another very "legalistic" person by the name of Jesus Christ?

LOL! Sure you do!

THE LAST WORD ON ADVENTIST TRUTH!

"Christ came to this earth and lived a life of perfect obedience, that men and women, through his grace, might also live lives of perfect obedience. This is necessary to their salvation. Without holiness no man shall see the Lord."

I am so glad you are posting theses little "gems." They show just how far that SDAism strays from the Gospel. Talk about legalism!

Here is the real Gospel:

Romans 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter?
2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God.
3 What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."]
4 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation.
5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.
6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him."

Rom. 5:17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

(These verses say nothing about multiple acts of righteousness, nor that every man can and must attain sinless perfection. They speak of one act of righteousness. What was that One Act? The very life of Jesus Christ Himself. The perfection of the Lamb of God)

19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Through the obedience of the One Man, Jesus Christ! It is His perfect righteousness that makes us righteous before God! His perfect life is credited to our account when we, like Abraham, trust in His salvation!

20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,
21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 1:16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.
17 For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."

The righteousness that saves us is a perfect righteousness, a righteousness directly from God. It is ours by faith only, i.e, "from first to last."

Thank you for posting these, Greg. They show how far Ellen strays from the Gospel.

Grace and peace,
Patti

>"Christ came to this earth and
>lived a life of perfect
>obedience, that men and women,
>through his grace, might also
>live lives of perfect obedience.
>This is necessary to their
>salvation. Without holiness no man
>shall see the Lord."
>
>
>I am so glad you are
>posting theses little "gems."
>They show just how far
>that SDAism strays from the
>Gospel. Talk about legalism!
>
>
>Here is the real Gospel:
>
>Romans 4:1 What then
>shall we say that Abraham,
>our forefather, discovered in this
>matter?
>2 If, in fact,
>Abraham was justified by works,
>he had something to boast
>about--but not before God.
>3 What does the
>Scripture say? "Abraham believed God,
>and it was credited to
>him as righteousness."]
>4 Now when a
>man works, his wages are
>not credited to him as
>a gift, but as an
>obligation.
>5 However, to the
>man who does not work
>but trusts God who justifies
>the wicked, his faith is
>credited as righteousness.
>6 David says the
>same thing when he speaks
>of the blessedness of the
>man to whom God credits
>righteousness apart from works:
>7 "Blessed are they
>whose transgressions are forgiven, whose
>sins are covered.
>8 Blessed is the
>man whose sin the Lord
>will never count against him."
>

What Vatican Dr. Patti posted here is the Gospel, but not the complete Gospel. It misses the covenant that shows man's duties so that he may know whom Christ will give His gift of salvation to. It misses Hebrews 11 which gives examples of the Gospel by Old Testament Saints. You can see what this says on my web site:

LawCovenant.htm

1 Corinthians 10 shows us examples of history that apply to us today. It shows the Children of Israel yielding to temptation and suffering the ultimate because of it. It equates their situations with ours showing that it is very much similar. It shows a different picture from those training us to sin so that we can lose our liberties and lives. Take time to read it and compare it to Patti's gospel!

What Patti has told us also dismisses the lessons learned at the Day of Atonement. The time came when everyone had to afflict their souls while the High Priest made atonement. This prefigured the conditions to take place when Jesus comes.

It is no wonder why Dr. Patti tries to get us to ignore the prophecies and the prophecies tell us that all who do this is lost. You either believe the prophecies or one here who babbles her qualifications to the Christian world.

>
>
>Thank you for posting these, Greg.
> They show how far
>Ellen strays from the Gospel.
>
>
>Grace and peace,
>Patti

Here is also the element of force. She speaks as if no one lives on the earth but her, yet she will not deal with my points or questions. The threatenings of the scriptures about the prophecies she is working to make people ignore has not an effect on her. This leads to the conclusion known for hundreds of years!

THE LAST WORD ON ADVENTIST TRUTH!

Here's another one along a similar line of thought:

"To obey the commandments of God is the only way to obtain His favor"
(Testimonies, vol. 4, p. 28)

Similar words in another source:

"Those who think it impossible for them to yield to the will of God and have faith in His promises until all is made clear and plain before them, will never yield at all. Faith is not certainty of knowledge; it "is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Heb. 11:1). To obey the commandments of God is the only way to obtain His favor. "Go forward" should be the Christian's watchword.

Continual progress in knowledge and virtue is God's purpose for us. His law is the echo of His own voice, giving to all the invitation, "Come up higher; be holy, holier still." Every day we may advance in perfection of Christian character.

Putting our trust in God, we are to move steadily forward, doing His work with unselfishness, in humble dependence upon Him, committing to His providence ourselves and all that concerns our present and future, holding the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end, remembering that we receive the blessings of heaven, not because of our worthiness, but because of Christ's worthiness and our acceptance, through faith in Him, of God's abounding grace.

Thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Cor. 15:57."

God's Amazing Grace, page 38-9

"Those who think it impossible for them to yield to the will of God and have faith in His promises until all is made clear and plain before them, will never yield at all.

So we can be forever lost for thinking that we cannot trust God until we have answers? Boy, is she hard on folks!

Faith is not certainty of knowledge; it "is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Heb. 11:1). To obey the commandments of God is the only way to obtain His favor. "Go forward" should be the Christian's watchword.

Wow! What a twist!
Those sentences contradict each other! If "faith is the evidence of things not seen, then "obeying the commandments of God" is clearly something that is seen.

Paul distinctly says that the law is not of faith:
Galatians 3:12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."

Continual progress in knowledge and virtue is God's purpose for us.

Actually, God's purpose for us is to "believe in the One He has sent."

His law is the echo of His own voice, giving to all the invitation, "Come up higher; be holy, holier still."

No. Not according to Scripture. The law beats us down, telling us how sinful we are:

19 What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator.
20 A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one.
21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law.
22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed.
24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.
25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

Every day we may advance in perfection of Christian character.

Scriptural reference?
In actuality, in Christ we stand perfect before God right now. It is His obedience, His perfection of character that is our eternal hope.

Putting our trust in God, we are to move steadily forward, doing His work with unselfishness, in humble dependence upon Him, committing to His providence ourselves and all that concerns our present and future, holding the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end, remembering that we receive the blessings of heaven, not because of our worthiness, but because of Christ's worthiness and our acceptance, through faith in Him, of God's abounding grace.

Yada, yada, yada. Not all that glitters is gold; and not all that sounds pious and holy is gospel. In fact, in this case, it is the "other gospel" that Paul warns us of in Galatians:

Galatians 3:1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified.
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?
3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?
4 Have you suffered so much for nothing--if it really was for nothing?
5 Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?
6 Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
7 Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham.

Thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Cor. 15:57."

1 John 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well.
2 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands.
3 This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,
4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.

Thank you for bringing these things to our attention, David.

Grace and peace,
Patti

Here's the whole paragraph (it starts on page 27):

"The voice of the Lord bidding His faithful ones "go forward" frequently tries their faith to the uttermost. But if they should defer obedience till every shadow of uncertainty was removed from their understanding, and there remained {page 28} no risk of failure or defeat, they would never move on at all. Those who think it impossible for them to yield to the will of God and have faith in His promises until all is made clear and plain before them, will never yield at all. Faith is not certainty of knowledge; it "is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." To obey the commandments of God is the only way to obtain His favor. "Go forward" should be the Christian's watchword." {She then goes on to give an example of someone who did not fully renounce his sinful ways.}

>Here's another one along a similar
>line of thought:
>
>"To obey the commandments of God
>is the only way to
>obtain His favor"
>(Testimonies, vol. 4, p. 28)

Catholics believe that those who have never heard of God, the Trinity, or even Christ can still be saved. And the only way we are going to be saved is through God's grace which allows us the strength to obey God's laws.

But basically this is right. I do feel a bit uncomfortable though with the phrase, "obtain His favor". For unless God shows us mercy, none of us is righteous enough to enter heaven.

In Jesus' Name,

Janice