Free Web Site - Free Web Space and Site Hosting - Web Hosting - Internet Store and Ecommerce Solution Provider - High Speed Internet
Search the Web

The following dialogue was captured from the Carm forums: http://www.carm.org. This is the first in a series of eight.

You cannot now find this dialogue on the Carm forums because the forum administrator or owner: "Dr. Patti" claims that the forum was upgraded sometime ago and fell into problems in the process. It therefore lost its former messages.

Be prepared to examine very carefully the tactics used in this dialogue. It is hoped that you would be able to understand what is being said and done here. It is worth your while studying these things, for soon you will see your national leaders exercise these very same tactics as they push a mandate upon you that is contrary to our Constitutional system in order to secure CHANGE.

This is part One:

 

Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry  Boards         Board Rules    Please be counted at the Home Page

Abor  Apol  Ath  Bib Proph  Bib Study  Cath  CD  Charis  Chr Theo  Evo  Free  Islam  JW  KJVO  LDS  One  Phil  SDA  Top  Uni

"Ellen White's greatest hits"

Email this topic to a friend
Printer-friendly version of this topic
Bookmark this topic (Registered users only)
  Previous Topic | Next Topic 
Conferences SEVENTH DAY ADVENTISM (Protected)
Original message
gregtravillian (22 posts) Click to EMail gregtravillian Click to send private message to gregtravillian Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
08-24-01, 08:46 PM (GMT)
"Ellen White's greatest hits"
Here is my favorite EGW quote. To me, this quote sums up Ellen White and the Adventist church:

"Man, who has defaced the image of God in his soul by a corrupt life, cannot, by mere human effort, effect a radical change in himself. He must accept the provisions of the gospel; he must be reconciled to God through obedience to his law and faith in Jesus Christ" (Testimonies, vol. 4, p. 294)

  Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
DavidConklin (52 posts) Click to EMail DavidConklin Click to send private message to DavidConklin Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
08-31-01, 07:31 AM (GMT)
103. "RE: Ellen White's greatest hits"
LAST EDITED ON 08-31-01 AT 07:32 AM (GMT)

>Here is my favorite EGW quote.
>To me, this quote sums
>up Ellen White and the
>Adventist church:
>
>"Man, who has defaced the image
>of God in his soul
>by a corrupt life, cannot,
>by mere human effort, effect
>a radical change in himself.
>He must accept the provisions
>of the gospel; he must
>be reconciled to God through
>obedience to his law and
>faith in Jesus Christ
" (Testimonies,
>vol. 4, p. 294)

Love that word "and".

Here's the _whole_ paragraph:

Man, who has defaced the image of God in his soul by a corrupt life, cannot, by mere human effort, effect a radical change in himself. He must accept the provisions of the gospel; he must be reconciled to God through obedience to His law and faith in Jesus Christ. His life from thenceforth must be governed by a new principle. Through repentance, faith, and good works he may perfect a righteous character, and claim, through the merits of Christ, the privileges of the sons of God. The principles of divine truth, received and cherished in the heart, will carry us to a height of moral excellence that we had not deemed it possible for us to reach. "And it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is. And every man that hath this hope in Him purifieth himself, even as He is pure."


  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
 
DrPatti (1342 posts) Click to EMail DrPatti Click to send private message to DrPatti Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
08-31-01, 11:11 AM (GMT)
118. "RE: Ellen White's greatest hits"
David quoted:

Man, who has defaced the image of God in his soul by a corrupt life, cannot, by mere human effort, effect a radical change in himself.

Two things wrong with this sentence:
1. Man, meaning "mankind," did not "deface the image of God in his soul by a corrupt life." Adam did, by one small sin.

2. Man cannot effect a radical change in himself at all in regard to his sinful flesh. He remains sinful until "this mortal puts on immortality." The essence of all false religions--and that is all of them but true Christianity--is that man can become as God. True Christianity is not about man attaining the perfection that belongs only to God; it is about man being saved in full by the work of Another. Just as we saw in that email article I posted the other day, Islam, Judaism, and all of the eastern religions are about character regeneration. Christianity is about salvation. About God lowering Himself to pay the full penalty for man's sin, and to offer those who trust in His saving work, His perfect obedience. It is about faith, and being regarded by God as His own Son is regarded when we trust in His salvation and in His perfect life.

He must accept the provisions of the gospel; he must be reconciled to God through obedience to His law and faith in Jesus Christ.

Whoa! Lots of errors in that sentence!

1. "He must be reconciled to God"??

We are reconciled to God already! By the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.
22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation--
23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

2 Cor 5:18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:
19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

How can the "messenger of the Lord" be so far off of the written Word of the Lord? Did she know what the Scriptures said?

2. "...through obedience to His law and faith in Jesus Christ."

A couple of observations here.

A. You see which Ellen mentions first: Law.

B. This contradicts the above verse that clearly states that we have been reconciled to God, not because of anything we have done or will do, but "through the death of His Son." Not just a misinterpretation, or a different interpretation. A contradiction. She says we are reconciled to God by what we do. Paul says we are reconciled to God by what Jesus Christ has done.

His life from thenceforth must be governed by a new principle. Through repentance, faith, and good works he may perfect a righteous character, and claim, through the merits of Christ, the privileges of the sons of God. The principles of divine truth, received and cherished in the heart, will carry us to a height of moral excellence that we had not deemed it possible for us to reach. "And it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is. And every man that hath this hope in Him purifieth himself, even as He is pure."

Interesting choice of texts for her to use. Because it contradicts her previous words:

1 John 3:2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, what we will be has not yet been made known.

Yet Ellen says that "what we will be" will be made known here and now. In that she claims that we can and must attain perfection of character.


But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

WHEN will be be like Him? When He appears.


(BTW, does anyone know if Ellen herself ever attained this "perfection of character" that she was peddling? If not, I guess she has a problem on her hands when her "sleeping soul" wakes up, at least according to own her theology.)

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
gregtravillian (22 posts) Click to EMail gregtravillian Click to send private message to gregtravillian Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
08-31-01, 10:05 AM (GMT)
111. "RE: Ellen White's greatest hits"
David, a question for you. Do you think that the EGW quotes I brought up on this thread represent true Adventism?

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
DavidConklin (52 posts) Click to EMail DavidConklin Click to send private message to DavidConklin Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
08-31-01, 11:03 AM (GMT)
116. "RE: Ellen White's greatest hits"
No.
  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
searching (39 posts) Click to EMail searching Click to send private message to searching Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
08-31-01, 08:07 AM (GMT)
107. "RE: Ellen White's greatest hits"
Let me ask you a question here, Is she talking about Jesus the Son of GOD, Or Jesus the arch angel Micheal? When I was an SDA I would read this quite a bit, Then one day they told me that Jesus and Micheal were one in the same, Hebrews1 says they are not. So I ask you, With which one in mind is she speaking of here?

It does make a difference, If one can not dicern who Jesus is then How can they tell me what he wants?


Christy

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
DavidConklin (52 posts) Click to EMail DavidConklin Click to send private message to DavidConklin Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
08-31-01, 11:04 AM (GMT)
117. "RE: Ellen White's greatest hits"
Hebrews 1 doesn't say anything about Michael.
  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
searching (39 posts) Click to EMail searching Click to send private message to searching Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
09-01-01, 06:27 AM (GMT)
122. "RE: Ellen White's greatest hits"
No it doesn't say any thing about "Micheal",And the wrestling match The SDA's teach Plainly states that Micheal was restling and not Jesus. How ever Hebrews 1 does Plainly say that Jesus WAS NOT AN ANGEL. Read it in what ever version you want to, It plainly states that GOD never never said to an Angel "you are my son", He told Jesus he was his son. And to let all the Angels worship him.

Your post is a typical SDA answer, What I don't get is how come you all never interjected anything into this passage? was it to plain for you? Is that why you had to teach the unwary that the restling match was really Jesus, When it plainly states it was Micheal?

The SDA's look for people that are willing to come Jesus and GOD and bank on the fact that they do not have any bible back ground at all and then teach them the gospel according to SDA methods, You can deny it all you want to, I see them every day. Their tactics are just as unworthy and false as the Catholics are.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
swill17 (28 posts) Click to EMail swill17 Click to send private message to swill17 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
09-01-01, 05:37 PM (GMT)
130. "RE: Ellen White's greatest hits"
>No it doesn't say any thing
>about "Micheal",And the wrestling match
>The SDA's teach Plainly states
>that Micheal was restling and
>not Jesus. How ever Hebrews
>1 does Plainly say that
>Jesus WAS NOT AN ANGEL.
>Read it in what ever
>version you want to, It
>plainly states that GOD never
> never said to an
>Angel "you are my son",
>He told Jesus he was
>his son. And to let
>all the Angels worship him.
>
>

To which man did God say, "You are my Son?" Yet Christ is better than the angels, but still Christ was a man and is a man!

Always the skilled deceivers of Satan twist the words to further an agenda. Next comes all the preaching that we are to focus on the points and not on the person. Someone who was posting here was expelled by a person capable of doing what Christians cannot who posted such preaching to him. So here now is an example by someone "searching" (as usual) of dealing with the points and not on the person:

>Your post is a typical SDA
>answer, What I don't get
>is how come you all
>never interjected anything into this
>passage? was it to plain
>for you? Is that why
>you had to teach the
>unwary that the restling match
>was really Jesus, When
>it plainly states it was
>Micheal?
>
>The SDA's look for people that
>are willing to come Jesus
>and GOD and bank on
>the fact that they do
>not have any bible back
>ground at all and then
>teach them the gospel according
>to SDA methods, You can
>deny it all you want
>to, I see them every
>day. Their tactics are just
>as unworthy and false as
>the Catholics are.


There you go. And how are you going to cover up this plain hatred? If anyone else is even milder than this, these workers for the Antichrist declare that they have not seen such hate!

Even this post is a shambles. We have not received an answer for Christ's Greatest Hits yet, but people with no conscience or soul replace what is necessary with their words.

In His Grace,


Susan Williams

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
DavidConklin (52 posts) Click to EMail DavidConklin Click to send private message to DavidConklin Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
09-01-01, 08:05 AM (GMT)
124. "RE: Ellen White's greatest hits"
An study by Donn Leiske

Every Bible use of the word Michael:

Num. 13:13 from the tribe of Asher, Sethur son of Michael;

1Chr. 5:13 Their relatives, by families, were: Michael, Meshullam, Sheba, Jorai, Jacan, Zia and Eber --seven in all.

1Chr. 5:14 These were the sons of Abihail son of Huri, the son of Jaroah, the son of Gilead, the son of Michael, the son of Jeshishai, the son of Jahdo, the son of Buz.

1Chr. 6:40 the son of Michael, the son of Baaseiah, the son of Malkijah,

1Chr. 7:3 The son of Uzzi: Izrahiah. The sons of Izrahiah: Michael, Obadiah, Joel and Isshiah. All five of them were chiefs.

1Chr. 8:16 Michael, Ishpah and Joha were the sons of Beriah.

1Chr. 12:20 When David went to Ziklag, these were the men of Manasseh who defected to him: Adnah, Jozabad, Jediael, Michael, Jozabad, Elihu and Zillethai, leaders of units of a thousand in Manasseh.

1Chr. 27:18 over Judah: Elihu, a brother of David; over Issachar: Omri son of Michael;

2Chr. 21:2 Jehoram's brothers, the sons of Jehoshaphat, were Azariah, Jehiel, Zechariah, Azariahu, Michael and Shephatiah. All these were sons of Jehoshaphat king of Israel.

Ezra 8:8 of the descendants of Shephatiah, Zebadiah son of Michael, and with him 80 men;

Dan. 10:13 But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia.

Dan. 10:21 but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth. (No one supports me against them except Michael, your prince.

Dan. 12:1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people --everyone whose name is found written in the book --will be delivered.

Jude 9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"

Rev. 12:7-9 And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down --that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Bible uses of the word "archangel":

1Ths. 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Jude 9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"

Bible uses of the phrase "war in heaven":

Rev. 12:7 And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.

Bible uses of the word "dragon":

Rev. 12:3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads.

Rev. 12:4 His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born.

Rev. 12:7 And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.

Rev. 12:9 The great dragon was hurled down --that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Rev. 12:13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.

Rev. 12:16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.

Rev. 12:17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring --those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Rev. 13:1 And the dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name.

Rev. 13:2 The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.

Rev. 13:4 Men worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, "Who is like the beast? Who can make war against him?"

Rev. 13:11 Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon.

Rev. 16:13 Then I saw three evil spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

Rev. 20:2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.

** Known fact: "Dragon", "Serpent", "Devil" are all names for "Satan" - Rev. 20:2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.

Bible (one of the) uses of the word "star":

Rev. 9:1 The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss.

Bible (significant) use of the word "stars":

Judg. 5:20 From the heavens the stars fought, from their courses they fought against Sisera.

** Bible Fact: "Stars" is a Bible name for heavenly angels. - Judg. 5:20 From the heavens the stars fought, from their courses they fought against Sisera. (cf Job 38:7 while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?) (cf Rev. 1:16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance. Rev. 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches. Rev. 2:1 "To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: These are the words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks among the seven golden lampstands: Rev. 3:1 "To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. Rev. 12:4 His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born.)

Is there any evidence that Jesus's voice raises the dead? Or is Michael's voice the only one?

John 5:25 I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

1Ths. 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

It was Jesus's voice that raised Lazaras from the dead. (cf John 12:9 Meanwhile a large crowd of Jews found out that Jesus was there and came, not only because of him but also to see Lazarus, whom he had raised from the dead.)

Who's voice raised Jesus from the dead?

God the Father - (cf - Acts 4:10 then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised Jesus from the dead --whom you had killed by hanging him on a tree. Rom. 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 2Cor. 4:14 because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you in his presence. Gal. 1:1 Paul, an apostle --sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead--)

Holy Spirit - (cf - Rom. 8:11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.)
----
Trump of God
(cf - Seven angels that stood before God, that were given seven trumpets Rev 8-11.)

All of the Bible uses of "trumpet, God":

Exod. 19:19 and the sound of the trumpet grew louder and louder. Then Moses spoke and the voice of God answered him.

Neh. 4:20 Wherever you hear the sound of the trumpet, join us there. Our God will fight for us!"

1Ths. 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Rev. 9:13 The sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice coming from the horns of the golden altar that is before God.

Rev. 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets."


Conclusion:

The Bible makes it clear that Jesus is Michael, archangel referred to in Daniel, Jude and Revelation.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
DrPatti (1342 posts) Click to EMail DrPatti Click to send private message to DrPatti Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
08-31-01, 11:15 AM (GMT)
120. "RE: Ellen White's greatest hits"
It clearly says that Jesus was not an angel of any kind, "arch" or otherwise.

4 For he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father"? Or again, "I will be his Father, and he will be my Son"?
6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him."
7 In speaking of the angels he says, "He makes his angels winds, his servants flames of fire."
8 But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
swill17 (28 posts) Click to EMail swill17 Click to send private message to swill17 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
09-01-01, 05:46 PM (GMT)
132. "RE: Ellen White's greatest hits"
>It clearly says that Jesus was
>not an angel of any
>
kind, "arch" or otherwise.
>

Are we to listen to these people who always seem to know what the bible CLEARLY says until it contradicts their opinions and agenda? The bible CLEARLY says many things that they do not accept.

And who is Michael the Archangel that stands for His people in the last chapter of the book of Daniel? Which angel is he that suddenly takes over responsibility for Christ's people?


In His Grace,


Susan Williams

  Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

 

This is Part I

Dr. Patti EGW II

Dr. Patti EGW III

Dr. Patti EGW IV

Dr. Patti EGW V

Dr. Patti EGW VI

Dr. Patti EGW VII

Dr. Patti EGW VIII

 

 

TO THE ADVENTIST BETRAYAL PAGE

 

TO JESUIT INFILTRATION PAGE

 

TO JESUIT DIALOGUES PAGE

 

TO THE ISSUES OF FREEDOM PAGE

 

TO Home Page